Bonus winnings vs own winnings

[spirit_123]

Hi all,

I recently had a quite horrible experience at a casino. I played in an online casino and by mistake I added a bonus. But allright, that happens. When I found out I had a bonus, I wished to cancel the bonus. This would result, according to the casino is the loss of all winnings. I am not familiar with bonuses, so I am just asking: how does this work? 

According to the casino: if you play with an active bonus and you lose money, then it comes from your own money. However, if you win money, then all the winnings are contributed to the bonus. This is, according to the casino, an industry standard.

Is this true? I am just curieus.

[cocopop3011]

Hi! Sorry for the late reply. 

Well, it depends on the casino really but yes some casinos will forfeit winnings if you cancel a bonus before completing the wagering. Had you already played some of the bonus before yu had requsted to cancel?

[Afi4wins]

On 5/15/2021 at 3:11 PM, spirit_123 said:

Hi all,

I recently had a quite horrible experience at a casino. I played in an online casino and by mistake I added a bonus. But allright, that happens. When I found out I had a bonus, I wished to cancel the bonus. This would result, according to the casino is the loss of all winnings. I am not familiar with bonuses, so I am just asking: how does this work? 

According to the casino: if you play with an active bonus and you lose money, then it comes from your own money. However, if you win money, then all the winnings are contributed to the bonus. This is, according to the casino, an industry standard.

Is this true? I am just curieus.

Pardon me, but that answer they gave you is an absurd answer!

Real money is always played first, and when your real money has been used up, then only you start playing with the bonus money. A bonus can either be sticky or non-sticky. A sticky bonus : you can withdraw any winnings when playing with your real money (before you start using the bonus money) but the bonus money would then be forfeited. A non-sticky bonus : you must complete the full wagering requirement before you can withdraw any winnings (if you don't like this non-sticky bonus, then you must first cancel that bonus BEFORE you start playing, or that wagering would become active and you have to complete it). 

[cocopop3011]

27 minutes ago, Afi4wins said:

Pardon me, but that answer they gave you is an absurd answer!

Real money is always played first, and when your real money has been used up, then only you start playing with the bonus money. A bonus can either be sticky or non-sticky. A sticky bonus : you can withdraw any winnings when playing with your real money (before you start using the bonus money) but the bonus money would then be forfeited. A non-sticky bonus : you must complete the full wagering requirement before you can withdraw any winnings (if you don't like this non-sticky bonus, then you must first cancel that bonus BEFORE you start playing, or that wagering would become active and you have to complete it). 

I have a feeling he has started playing with actual bonus money though and not cancelled the bonus in time. I might be wrong though.

[Afi4wins]

5 hours ago, cocopop3011 said:

I have a feeling he has started playing with actual bonus money though and not cancelled the bonus in time. I might be wrong though.

Spirit123 must be an inexperienced slotter, because he/she wasn't sure how a bonus works. Maybe he/she had started playing, then realising that he/she wanted to cancel the bonus instead, maybe to play only with his real money, or perhaps to make a withdrawal of his winnings by then. Not enough info is given in his post, so we cannot know the real situation he/she was in.

Most probably it was a non-sticky bonus that he/she took, so the wagering must be completed first before any winnings can be withdrawn. Or maybe he/she wanted to cancel the bonus after already started playing, but was informed by the casino that all his bonus money and winnings would be forfeited, possibly ending with a zero balance. 

[Blackjax]

Can you please name the casino you were playing at so that we can make you understand what happened. 

BTW there are 4 types of bonuses that casinos usually offer. 

Sticky: This is a bonus offered by casino which cannot be withdrawn but you have to finish wager. 

For eg: You deposit €100 and get €100 bonus with 4000 wager. In this case you cannot withdraw balance until you finished wager which in this case is 8000. After you finish wager the €100 as bonus would be removed. So after finishing wager if you have say €500, the initial €100 will be removed and you will get 400.

Sticky (no wager) : This bonus does not have any wager requirements. So if you deposit €100 and get €100 bonus you get total 200. You can play up and win and withdraw whenever you want but initial 100 will be removed. Even if you go lower than initial 200 and end up at 150 and want to withdraw you will get €50 only.

No-sticky (real+bonus):When you play this bonus your balance is divided into real and bonus funds and you begin playing with real money first and you can withdraw whenever you want untill you reach bonus. When you reach bonus balance then your wager starts and after finishing wager all money is available to withdraw. 

For eg: If You deposit €100 and get €100 bonus with 4000 wager. Your starting balance is 200. You can withdraw whenever you want until you reach €100. After that bonus money starts and you have to finish wager. 

No-sticky (all bonus): In this bonus when you deposit with bonus the entire bal is turned into bonus and you cannot withdraw until you finish wager. Some casino will allow you to withdraw balance but only the initial amount. So if you deposit €100 and get €100 and end up reaching € 300 you can only withdarw €100. 

[spirit_123]

Thanks for the replies. Yes,  I don't use bonuses ever, because all of the "interesting" terms. I will describe exactly what happened:

• I deposited a fair amount which could have given me a bonus of €1000. This I did not want to have.
• Immediatly after I deposited another fair amount and by mistake I got a bonus of €100. I did not realise that. (The total amount was not a round number, which I just overlooked). 
• I started playing and made some good winnings, wanted to withdraw and saw that I could only withdraw my initial €1000. 
• I immediatly went to the chat and asked whether they could cancel my bonus. 
• This was not possible because, so I had to wager it. 
• So I did (by the rules).
• I lost some money, but still. Then I withdrew. I day later I got the message: your winnings have been forfeited, because you violated the bonus terms. Which I technically did, before realising I had a bonus. 

I really find this completely unfair, basically for two reasons.

1. I never used the bonus money. My balance has always been far above €100. I could really see no harm in cancelling the bonus at a later stage, as the money was never used at all. Should I have "touched" the money, that would be something different.

2. A more general point is: should a player ever violate the terms of conditions of the bonus, the result would be that the casino can never lose. In the best (for the player) case they don't have to pay out winnings. In the worst case, the player loses his money and the casino wins. I would say this is completely unfair and would justify severe actions from the casino to ensure a player does not violotes (either by mistake or on purpose) the T&C. 

So, I mean technically they may be right, but I find it ridiculous unfair. Is this industry practice? 

[Blackjax]

Can you please tell the name of the casino so we can understand the T&c of this casino. 

[spirit_123]

Just now, Blackjax said:

Can you please tell the name of the casino so we can understand the T&c of this casino. 

Yes, it is BitStarz, which has a certificate of excellence here. 

[Afi4wins]

Where gambling is concerned, all the Terms & Conditions for casinos to operate have been thoroughly scrutinised and written down to favour the casinos, never to favour the customers. The 'small' 3%-4% edge that initially casinos are given are really unsatisfactory to them, so many other ways are 'introduced' into their Terms & Conditions to improve their revenue returns. One of the ways happen to be how Bonus money can be used and should be used, but with many 'pit traps' to catch erroneous players and to confiscate their winnings.

Everything is quite legal in the eyes of the law, but the terms are clearly seen as being quite unfair to customers in many respects. It is therefore very important for customers at casinos to read and understand all the stated Terms & Conditions and to make sure that no casino rules would be breached or broken.

The truth is, not everyone can be well versed with terms and conditions, even if written in simple basic language, but terms are always written with lots of ambiguities to give casinos some extra edge. The terms can be interpreted in various ways, and that's where most disputes stay unresolved or lost.

[Fiekie247]

Yeah

I went through the same issue, I believe the reason you violated the bonus terms was because you exceeded the maxbet of 5 euro even though you did not know you have a bonus active.

I think the casino acted fair, however if you realized you had a bonus, then you should have contact support and inform them so they make a note on the account should you complete wager, they might over look it.

I once deposited 20 mBTC, received a bonus as part of the Monday 50% bonus and did not know. I made a 5.9mBTC bonus buy and won close to 50mBTC and informed their support about it.

I went and completed wager and withdrew and it was paid, as I notified them at the moment of Bonus Buy I did not notice I had a bonus as I play with straight cash most times as well. Sometimes they make exceptions, and sometimes they don't, so better you contact support if you made a betting mistake.

I am sure most of the forum members remember that Topic where Olle had to explain a couple of things.

[Fiekie247]

@spirit_123 - I understand exactly how you feel, but I believe you learn this lesson to always check your bonuses when making  deposits and make sure the enabled bonus option is unchecked. However if this is the case, when you deposit on Wednesdays, you will not qualify for the Wednesday spins.

So just be careful next time and double check everything before you start playing.

Funny enough when  a bonus is active, you seem to get decent hits, had the bonus not been there - 80% of the time you will suddenly never win that big LOL - Just my 2 cents or how it sometimes seem to me...

[Blackjax]

Woah bitstarz. They are a very good casino. So apparently while being on bonus you made a bet higher than allowed $/€ 5 and that is where you broke rules. 

The thing with casinos like these is that while making a deposit there is a notification box where you are supposed to tick/toggle which says 'I don't want any bonuses'. And then bonuses are not added since you did not tick that box bonus got automatically added. 

The casino usually let's go if only few bets are made but I don't think you made a few bets. In cases like your the casino usually confiscates the winning amount and returns the deposit. I assume you have been given your deposit back and only your winnings have been forfeited. If that's the case then you should be content with that. But if your entire deposit has been confiscated then you should appeal. 

[Afi4wins]

4 hours ago, Blackjax said:

Can you please name the casino you were playing at so that we can make you understand what happened. 

BTW there are 4 types of bonuses that casinos usually offer. 

Sticky: This is a bonus offered by casino which cannot be withdrawn but you have to finish wager. 

For eg: You deposit €100 and get €100 bonus with 4000 wager. In this case you cannot withdraw balance until you finished wager which in this case is 8000. After you finish wager the €100 as bonus would be removed. So after finishing wager if you have say €500, the initial €100 will be removed and you will get 400.

Sticky (no wager) : This bonus does not have any wager requirements. So if you deposit €100 and get €100 bonus you get total 200. You can play up and win and withdraw whenever you want but initial 100 will be removed. Even if you go lower than initial 200 and end up at 150 and want to withdraw you will get €50 only.

No-sticky (real+bonus):When you play this bonus your balance is divided into real and bonus funds and you begin playing with real money first and you can withdraw whenever you want untill you reach bonus. When you reach bonus balance then your wager starts and after finishing wager all money is available to withdraw. 

For eg: If You deposit €100 and get €100 bonus with 4000 wager. Your starting balance is 200. You can withdraw whenever you want until you reach €100. After that bonus money starts and you have to finish wager. 

No-sticky (all bonus): In this bonus when you deposit with bonus the entire bal is turned into bonus and you cannot withdraw until you finish wager. Some casino will allow you to withdraw balance but only the initial amount. So if you deposit €100 and get €100 and end up reaching € 300 you can only withdarw €100. 

Sorry mate, but you got your bonus terms upside down there! Here's an example (not from BitStarz):

All the bonuses are non-sticky. It means, you cannot request your withdrawal until wagering requirements are fully fulfilled. Also, you start playing for real money first, then for bonus money, and as soon as bonus money is lost, the bonus also gets lost.

[Blackjax]

9 minutes ago, Afi4wins said:

Sorry mate, but you got your bonus terms upside down there! Here's an example:

All the bonuses are non-sticky. It means, you cannot request your withdrawal until wagering requirements are fully fulfilled. Also, you start playing for real money first, then for bonus money, and as soon as bonus money is Lost, the bonus also gets lost.

I dont think so  @Afi4wins  A sticky bonuses are ones which cannot be withdrawn. Only for playing. Previously these bonuses had wager but now most of them don't have any wager. 

A non sticky is one that can be withdrawn. 

Non sticky are two types ones that direx Nv/ N1 interactive offer and the others whick leo Vegas types offer. You can withdraw all your money before reaching bonus balance. You also call them parachute bonus. 

[Blackjax]

7 minutes ago, Afi4wins said:

 

Oops double post. 

[Fiekie247]

I have seen casinos misinterpret that term - Non-Sticky means, you can withdraw your real portion of cash, if you have not touched your bonus balance, yet some casinos say

Bonuses are non-sticky and cannot be withdrawn before wager is completed - I remember I saw one casino have this term and I told their support to fix that.

[Afi4wins]

4 minutes ago, Blackjax said:

I dont think so  @Afi4wins  A sticky bonuses are ones which cannot be withdrawn. Only for playing. Previously these bonuses had wager but now most of them don't have any wager. 

A non sticky is one that can be withdrawn. 

Non sticky are two types ones that direx Nv/ N1 interactive offer and the others whick leo Vegas types offer. You also call them parachute bonus. 

That's exactly what I meant by different individual interpretations of Bonus Terms! 

When playing with a Sticky Bonus, any winnings made from playing with real cash can be withdrawn, but the Bonus money would be forfeited, but once the real money has been used up, the Bonus wagering terms come into play, except for wager-free bonuses.

When playing with a Non-Sticky Bonus, even if you make a winning with your real money, you cannot withdraw that winnings because the Bonus terms have already been activated. Withdrawal is only possible after completion of the Bonus wagering requirement.

Yes, there are Bonuses that cannot be withdrawn with the winnings, and there are also some Bonuses that can be included into the total winnings amount and can be withdrawn.

[Afi4wins]

5 minutes ago, Fiekie247 said:

I have seen casinos misinterpret that term - Non-Sticky means, you can withdraw your real portion of cash, if you have not touched your bonus balance, yet some casinos say

Bonuses are non-sticky and cannot be withdrawn before wager is completed - I remember I saw One Casino have this term and I told their support to fix that.

That's one of the ambiguities in their Bonus Terms that can lead to disputes and rejections. So, which is which? 

[spirit_123]

3 minutes ago, Afi4wins said:

That's exactly what I meant by different individual interpretations of Bonus Terms! 

When playing with a Sticky Bonus, any winnings made from playing with real cash can be withdrawn, but the Bonus money would be forfeited, but once the real money has been used up, the Bonus wagering terms come into play, except for wager-free bonuses.

When playing with a Non-Sticky Bonus, even if you make a winning with your real money, you cannot withdraw that winnings because the Bonus terms have already been activated. Withdrawal is only possible after completion of the Bonus wagering requirement.

Yes, there are Bonuses that cannot be withdrawn with the winnings, and there are also some Bonuses that can be included into the total winnings amount and can be withdrawn.

Just on a general remark, this is a clear violation of the law (if any: the law of every EU member state). The rule basically is: if T&C are open to interpretation, the interpretation of the one who did not write the T&C (in this case: the player) is binding. 

[Afi4wins]

2 minutes ago, spirit_123 said:

Just on a general remark, this is a clear violation of the law (if any: the law of every EU member state). The rule basically is: if T&C are open to interpretation, the interpretation of the one who did not write the T&C (in this case: the player) is binding. 

Are you sure that is correct? I mean, if the player is not well versed with legal terms or legality, does that mean the player's interpretation is the correct one? No way!

[Fiekie247]

4 minutes ago, Afi4wins said:

That's one of the ambiguities in their Bonus Terms that can lead to disputes and rejections. So, which is which? 

Sticky - You need to complete wager requirements before you can withdraw or if its Sticky ( No Wager Bonus) - The bonus amount is always deducted on withdrawal whenever you decide to withdraw.

Non Sticky - Real money and bonus funds are separate ( If you win big with deposited funds you can withdraw and cancel the bonus, as that winnings is added to the real portion), if you touch the bonus funds you need to complete wagering requirements.

[Afi4wins]

2 minutes ago, Fiekie247 said:

Sticky - You need to complete wager requirements before you can withdraw or if its Sticky ( No Wager Bonus) - The bonus amount is always deducted on withdrawal whenever you decide to withdraw.

Non Sticky - Real money and bonus funds are separate ( If you Win Big with deposited funds you can withdraw and cancel the bonus, as that winnings is added to the real portion), if you touch the bonus funds you need to complete wagering requirements.

Here's a copy of Praise Casino's Bonus Terms:

All the bonuses are non-sticky. It means, you cannot request your withdrawal until wagering requirements are fully fulfilled. Also, you start playing for real money first, then for bonus money, and as soon as bonus money is lost, the bonus also gets lost.

[Afi4wins]

What does the Bonus Terms at BitStarz like? 

[spirit_123]

7 minutes ago, Afi4wins said:

Are you sure that is correct? I mean, if the player is not well versed with legal terms or legality, does that mean the player's interpretation is the correct one? No way!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_proferentem, this is part of an EU-regulation on T&C and therefore valid in all EU-Member States