When is the Terms of Sevice of a casino Voidable?

[Ghostnipple]

Terms of service is essentially a contract between the player and the casino. It is important that the player reads and understands the Terms of Service and wherever they have doubt, they should seek clarification from the casino before making a deposit. Agreeing to a contract without reading it could be considered as negligence on the players part and to my knowledge negligence is not a defence in any court of law. However assuming a player has read the Terms of Service and has understood them in what would be deemed as a reasonable understanding by a reasonable and fair minded individual, based on how the terms are phrased. There are a number of situations which may make the contract between a player and casino voidable:
 

1. Fraud
   wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in the casino's financial gain.
2. Misrepresentation
   Misrepresentation is a material misstatement of fact that induces a player to rely on a statement the casino has made.
3. Duress
   Duress means the use or threat of force to convince a player to act according to the casino's wishes.
4. Undue Influence
   Undue influence arises when one party unfairly takes advantage of another party by using a position of trust, influence, or confidence.
5. Mutual Mistake
   A mistake by both parties regarding material facts or circumstances relevant to the contract.
6. Unilateral Mistake
   A unilateral mistake about the basic assumptions of the contract will only make the contract voidable when the casino knew or had reason to know of the other player's mistake. If the same mistake happens repeatedly to a number of players and the casino does nothing to rectify the terms leading to the mistake, this can provide evidence that the casino had reason to know that the terms of the contract will most likely lead to player's being mistaken.
   
   -adapted from Voidability of a Contract - Explained, Gordon J., September 2021, https://thebusinessprofessor.com/
   
   Can anyone tell me who are the individuals that make up the Complaints dispute team? Ignoring "best practice" considerations, it would be standard practice for this to be stated very clearly on site as it reassures readers that there is no conflict of interest in how decisions are made. Such a declaration is conspicuous by its absence, however it may simply be due to ignorance or a mistake.
   
   Please note, Im not a legal advisor and my opinions should not be taken as legal advice, I simply want to expose players here to some ideas and concepts that they may not have considered previously.

[Afi4wins]

@Ghostnipple Are you referring to Askgamblers' AGCCS Team?

If so, then only an admin staff ( @cocopop3011 or @ValDes ) can give you an answer. We members do not know who the team are.

[Ghostnipple]

23 minutes ago, Afi4wins said:

@Ghostnipple Are you referring to Askgamblers' AGCCS Team?

If so, then only an admin staff ( @cocopop3011 or @ValDes ) can give you an answer. We members do not know who the team are.

yes I'm not asking for their names. I'm just wondering are they all casino personnel or is it a mix of players and casino personnel or is it all players.
I would hope for a balance between casino personnel and some players (who have no vested interest in a casinos financial success)

[Afi4wins]

1 hour ago, Ghostnipple said:

yes I'm not asking for their names. I'm just wondering are they all casino personnel or is it a mix of players and casino personnel or is it all players.
I would hope for a balance between casino personnel and some players (who have no vested interest in a casinos financial success)

I would make a guess that the AGCCS Team is made up of a few Askgamblers staff, assigned to handle complaints from members, and probably assigned to do other tasks as well. I don't think any outside or affiliated casino staff are involved, and I certainly cannot say anything of their credibility either, but suffice to say, the AGCCS Team has gotten back many millions of complainants money so far. 

[cocopop3011]

3 hours ago, Ghostnipple said:

yes I'm not asking for their names. I'm just wondering are they all casino personnel or is it a mix of players and casino personnel or is it all players.
I would hope for a balance between casino personnel and some players (who have no vested interest in a casinos financial success)

What do you mean by casino personnel? AG staff do not work at or employed by any casinos. 

[Ghostnipple]

Ok well so long as they dont receive any money from casinos then there is no conflict of interest.

[Ghostnipple]

Let me give a clear example of conflict of interest. Some of you may have come across The Crypto Gambling Foundation, or you may have seen this badge on the front page on a number of websites.

Stake.com list this organisation under their licenses section of their website and state that "they are proud to be a member of their network".
If you go to that site you won't see any list of the directors, they don't list the chairman or the secretary or give any information about the individuals that constitute The Crypto Gambling Foundation.

The reason they don't give that information is because Stake.com created the crypto gambling foundation in 2018. They awarded themselves instant membership and they alone determine which casinos they give membership to. This is a deception, it gives the player the impression that a third party independent organisation has licenced Stake.com as a verified operator. Players regularly send complaints about stake to the crypto gambling foundation which are ignored because they go to staff employed by stake.com. This is what is known as misrepresentation (see points 2 and 4 above).

So my point is when an organisation does not tell you anything about the individuals who make up that organisation or how or why those individuals are chosen. Then it's probably because they don't want you to know. Stating clearly who is actually involved or appointed to roles within an organisation is standard practice as it reassures stakeholders that there is no conflict of interest.

[Ghostnipple]

19 hours ago, cocopop3011 said:

What do you mean by casino personnel? AG staff do not work at or employed by any casinos. 

Sorry if I'm being unclear. A conflict of interest arises when an individual who is either directly employed by a casino or is in receipt of financial payments (or any other benefits) from a casino while at the same time is tasked with settling disputes between the same casino(s) and a player. 

In this situation it is both a fair and reasonable expectation for that individual to declare any financial interests they have that relate to either party in a dispute. If there are none then they should state that clearly. This is standard practice in any scenario in which a conflict of interest may arise.

I can assure you that anyone who sits on the  AGCCS Team  knows exactly what a conflict of interest is, and would be more than happy to make a declaration, unless of course there is a conflict of interest.

[cocopop3011]

7 minutes ago, Ghostnipple said:

Sorry if I'm being unclear. A conflict of interest arises when an individual who is either directly employed by a casino or is in receipt of financial payments (or any other benefits) from a casino while at the same time is tasked with settling disputes between the same casino(s) and a player. 

In this situation it is both a fair and reasonable expectation for that individual to declare any financial interests they have that relate to either party in a dispute. If there are none then they should state that clearly. This is standard practice in any scenario in which a conflict of interest may arise.

I can assure you that anyone who sits on the  AGCCS Team  knows exactly what a conflict of interest is, and would be more than happy to make a declaration, unless of course there is a conflict of interest.

No idea what you’re going on about. 

[Blackjax]

16 minutes ago, Ghostnipple said:

Sorry if I'm being unclear. A conflict of interest arises when an individual who is either directly employed by a casino or is in receipt of financial payments (or any other benefits) from a casino while at the same time is tasked with settling disputes between the same casino(s) and a player. 

In this situation it is both a fair and reasonable expectation for that individual to declare any financial interests they have that relate to either party in a dispute. If there are none then they should state that clearly. This is standard practice in any scenario in which a conflict of interest may arise.

I can assure you that anyone who sits on the  AGCCS Team  knows exactly what a conflict of interest is, and would be more than happy to make a declaration, unless of course there is a conflict of interest.

How on earth are you even taking to the conflict of interest point. Do you have any idea how many casinos are there? Is it possible to have people from casinos to be made part of AGCCS team? 

The complaint review team consists of members employed by Askgamblers. These members review each complaint manually and if these complaints are not breaking casino terms then they are sent to casinos representative. That is the time when casinos get involved. Then the complaint is open and all dialogues baring ones with sensitive information can be seen by everyone. 

You should go to the complaint section and read one active and one resolved issue to get a better idea.

[Ghostnipple]

2 minutes ago, Blackjax said:

How on earth are you even taking to the conflict of interest point. Do you have any idea how many casinos are there? Is it possible to have people from casinos to be made part of AGCCS team? 

The complaint review team consists of members employed by Askgamblers. These members review each complaint manually and if these complaints are not breaking casino terms then they are sent to casinos representative. That is the time when casinos get involved. Then the complaint is open and all dialogues baring ones with sensitive information can be seen by everyone. 

You should go to the complaint section and read one active and one resolved issue to get a better idea.

When money is concerned it is standard practice for anyone involved to make a declaration regarding a conflict of interest. So Im not sure what your point is. Are you saying that it is better that the review team dont make a declaration? or it is not possible for them to make a declaration? 

[Blackjax]

9 minutes ago, Ghostnipple said:

When money is concerned it is standard practice for anyone involved to make a declaration regarding a conflict of interest. So Im not sure what your point is. Are you saying that it is better that the review team dont make a declaration? or it is not possible for them to make a declaration? 

Its common logic. How can AG team employ a person from every casino to be part of the review team? This is why they have casino representative with whom they deal. If any casino refuses to respond on multiple occasions they are blacklisted. You are making so many assumptions without even understanding how things work. This is why I told you to read a few complaints to have a better understanding.

[cocopop3011]

22 minutes ago, Ghostnipple said:

When money is concerned it is standard practice for anyone involved to make a declaration regarding a conflict of interest. So Im not sure what your point is. Are you saying that it is better that the review team dont make a declaration? or it is not possible for them to make a declaration? 

But there are no conflict of interests. AskGamblers is AskGamblers, casinos are casinos. When a complaint is opened that complain is against the Player Vs Casino. AskGamblers act as the mediator between the two. Joe that complaint is resolved entirely depends on the casino or the player. 
 

AG will step in and close the complaint if the casino or player do not respond in the timeframe. 

[Ghostnipple]

35 minutes ago, Blackjax said:

The complaint review team consists of members employed by Askgamblers. These members review each complaint manually and if these complaints are not breaking casino terms then they are sent to casinos representative.

Could you elaborate please on this. What do you mean "members employed by Askgamblers"? Members of what? How are these individuals selected? What qualifies them to make any determination? any information you have on this would be very useful. Thank you.

[Blackjax]

 

3 minutes ago, Ghostnipple said:

Could you elaborate please on this. What do you mean "members employed by Askgamblers"? Members of what? How are these individuals selected? What qualifies them to make any determination? any information you have on this would be very useful. Thank you.

Bro you are not a baby that needs to be spoonfed everything. You should make some effort to go through the site. 

Let me do you a small favour

https://www.askgamblers.com/complaint-guidelines

[cocopop3011]

3 minutes ago, Ghostnipple said:

Could you elaborate please on this. What do you mean "members employed by Askgamblers"? Members of what? How are these individuals selected? What qualifies them to make any determination? any information you have on this would be very useful. Thank you.

AskGamblers DO NOT make the determination! The end result of a complaint, once opened depends on how the casino or player responds. 
AskGamblers staff are trained to decide whether or not conplaints are accepted or rejected based on the guidelines you see when you try to submit a complaint. 

BUT once that complaint is open - it’s down to the casino and player to communicate with each other. Both parties must provide evidence to back up their side of the argument. 

[Ghostnipple]

45 minutes ago, Blackjax said:

The complaint review team consists of members employed by Askgamblers. These members review each complaint manually and if these complaints are not breaking casino terms

Thanks very much for the link you sent, I had previously reviewed that page but didn't see any reference to the team consisting of "members employed by Askgamblers". Unfortunately the sections aren't numbered, which would make referencing easier for everyone. However if you have a moment maybe you could direct me to the section which gives information about the make up of the team. Thank you for your time.

[Ghostnipple]

11 minutes ago, cocopop3011 said:

AskGamblers DO NOT make the determination! The end result of a complaint, once opened depends on how the casino or player responds. 
AskGamblers staff are trained to decide whether or not conplaints are accepted or rejected based on the guidelines you see when you try to submit a complaint. 

BUT once that complaint is open - it’s down to the casino and player to communicate with each other. Both parties must provide evidence to jack up their side of the argument. 

Well this is a very useful discussion, thanks for your input. I should point out that deciding whether a complaint is accepted or rejected is very much a determination that is critical to the player making the complaint.

[Ghostnipple]

28 minutes ago, Blackjax said:

 

Bro you are not a baby that needs to be spoonfed everything. You should make some effort to go through the site. 

Let me do you a small favour

https://www.askgamblers.com/complaint-guidelines

Thank you for pointing this out, everyone benefits from transparency I'm sure you will agree. Let me just say that when money is concerned details matter. 
Please consider the following two statements:

a: AGCCS is not sponsored by any gambling company.
b: Members of the AGCCS team are not in receipt of any finances, or benefits in kind, either directly or indirectly, from any casino.

If you don't see the difference between those two statements, let me know and I can elaborate for you. Otherwise assuming you understand the difference please consider which of those two statements do you think is more reassuring to a player submitting a complaint when a substantial amount of money is at stake.

[Blackjax]

@Ghostnipple what was your conflict with the casino where you broke terms or you think that casino was unfair to you?

[Ghostnipple]

20 minutes ago, Blackjax said:

@Ghostnipple what was your conflict with the casino where you broke terms or you think that casino was unfair to you?

Sir,  I notice you have made no attempt to clarify your statements regarding the structure of the  AGCCS team.
I have asked you twice already.  I'm not here to argue, I wish to be proven wrong and I'm inviting you do assist me in that. I'm looking for transparency and I'm look for details.
If neither exist I want to be sure about that. Because again where money is concerned both details and transparency matter. 

[Blackjax]

4 minutes ago, Ghostnipple said:

Sir,  I notice you have made no attempt to clarify your statements regarding the structure of the  AGCCS team.
I have asked you twice already.  I'm not here to argue, I wish to be proven wrong and I'm inviting you do assist me in that. I'm looking for transparency and I'm look for details.
If neither exist I want to be sure about that. Because again where money is concerned both details and transparency matter. 

Askgamblers are quite clear about their policy and  I have nothing to add. You have already been proven wrong.

Why are you not answering about your conflict with the casino?

[Blackjax]

@Ghostnipple you are not being shown on online user list. You are active but still not being shown online. How are you doing this? Any online user is shown active for atleast 30 minutes.

[cocopop3011]

2 hours ago, Ghostnipple said:

Thanks very much for the link you sent, I had previously reviewed that page but didn't see any reference to the team consisting of "members employed by Askgamblers". Unfortunately the sections aren't numbered, which would make referencing easier for everyone. However if you have a moment maybe you could direct me to the section which gives information about the make up of the team. Thank you for your time.

We don’t need to state employed by AskGamblers, because isn’t that absolutely obvious  

 

[pinnit2015]

Is this horse well and truly flogged?

The complaints team is a complaints team - i don't think people need to be told they work for AG because what, otherwise they might assume they work for a casino?

Will there be potential for conflicts of interests between an affiliate site who handle complaints?  (you can see it across many sites)- i think yes (same for large accountancy firms who offer consultancy work for the companies they perform statutory audits for) and, just like there, it needs to be managed (the upside though is that you get good relationships with said casinos and ergo, providing the casino isn't as dodgy as an EU Banana, may achieve a favourable complaints outcome)

As for details to the T about who handles the complaints and, what, if they have completed conflict of interest declarations, you'll struggle to see any/if at all of that type of information on an Ombudsman's website. 

So basically you want the names of the Complaints Team published and then a signed off conflict of interest form published on here? Er...no.

You're always free to go to the casino's nominated ADR if you can't get the assurances from a FREE service here. Speaking of going to an ADR....they've be even less transparent as, bar one i believe, they don't publish ANY complaints decisions. ADR's also charge the casino.  Informal dispute resolution, such as here, has the perks that folk can read the actual rationale - ADR, you don't get that. 

It's a model that has pro's and con's on both sides. 

Even having complaints directed directly to a regulator might not be great - less risk of conflicts but, with the volume they'd take on, i imagine less success for players possibly. 

The other thing is sites such as here have a lot of different revenue streams from many, many casinos - the less reliance you have on one source of revenue the risk reduces etc.  

I think you've sufficiently beat this horse to an inch of its life.