You never think it could happen to you....

[catapultaudio]

Hi all,

So... yesterday I've had something of a complete nightmare with my bank account, came in from work in the morning and went to bed for a few hours (night shift you see).... by the time I got myself up I found myself with just £50 left in my bank account, which had £600 in it the night before. 

Didn't recognise most of the transactions that were showing, "kindred" was the name of the company... but whatever, I contacted my bank immediately and told them, who informed me it was an online gaming company .... Unibet, to be exact. Strange, I do play at Unibet occasionally and it always shows as Unibet on my statement. Furthermore, I am normally required to confirm my transactions using my mobile phone at point of purchase, but this strange "kindred" tag did not trigger this fraud prevention mechanism.

Obviously I reported to the bank immediately, had the card blocked, spoke to the casino who said they will need to talk to the bank.... but were friendly enough to shut my account immediately too... the bank asked for a crime reference number, which I acquired, but was also told I need to talk to action fraud on Monday as well. 

My worry is, I had my card details saved into my laptop ... that may or may not be a factor here. I work in IT and don't really protect my machines as most people do, I guess you could say I am cocky. But the most likely thing that has happened is that the people I left in my flat when I went to work the previous night figured they would keep on playing, as I'd been spinning Sky and Videoslots before I left... both sites that I have sensible limits set on... and again, whenever I deposit there I have to confirm the purchase with my mobile. Or it could just be that my machine is hacked also. Whatever the case, this is £250 i really could not afford to lose, and I'm worried that chasing this up to get it back will get it barred from playing at other sites now too.

Does anybody have any advice what I should do about this at this stage? I need the money back desperately at this stage, I don't get paid again for over  a week and have been left with next to nothing.

[pinnit2015]

Even if Kindred viewed it as somewhat similar to a 'chargeback', and hence closed your account, it wouldn't affect/or shouldn't affect other casinos - somewhat of a myth that there's this big giant database of who's charged back and this is shared across casinos - if true, and i doubt it, it'd be illegal in all likelihood. So i wouldn't really care about that.

I'd be more concerned of the possibility of folk you know using your details  -how would they know your unibet details, do you autofill?

My experience was that it took 30 days to get my cash back when it happened to me so. 

If your banks half decent they'll grant you a temporary overdraft for a week etc (providing the accounts secure)

 

[catapultaudio]

The trouble I'm having is, one, I played other sites earlier the same day, which apparently suggests I must therefore have played for the rest of the night too... And secondly, I placed some orders on amazon during the night whilst I was working, so apparently should have noticed that I had other recent transactions at that time... Not necessarily true, I had plenty of money, I didn't feel I needed to look at my balance... Who does anyway, as a matter of course when making a purchase? 

I've clearly gone mental with the folks who stayed here with my girl when I went to work and have my suspicions about what has happened... Yes my logon for most sites are saved in my laptop but I felt secure with this arrangement because of the 2FA requirement to purchase things online. 

If I tell the police who I believe made the deposits, and my bank, is that going to help get my money back? Or just get them into trouble? I don't really care if they get into bother, but of course I might be wrong and if they just tell me I have to demand the money back from them anyway, getting them arrested surely won't help my cause much will it?! 

This is truly a nightmare for me, I'm completely distraught, I have no way of borrowing any money right now, and have just gone one day without eating... Don't know how to get to work tomorrow either at this current time... Is the money completely irretrievable as far as the casino is concerned , anyone know? 

[cocopop3011]

Hhave you confronted the people that were left in your flat that night and asked them? And is it not a los of £450 not £250? Have you asked the casino why the payments did not asked to be verified by your phone?

In regards to the next step, I guess the ony thing you can do right now is wait until tomorrow until you can speak to the fraud team. I know that's not the answer you're looking for but I personally don't find a quick way around this. Who do you bank with?

[pinnit2015]

4 minutes ago, cocopop3011 said:

Hhave you confronted the people that were left in your flat that night and asked them? And is it not a los of £450 not £250? Have you asked the casino why the payments did not asked to be verified by your phone?

In regards to the next step, I guess the ony thing you can do right now is wait until tomorrow until you can speak to the fraud team. I know that's not the answer you're looking for but I personally don't find a quick way around this. Who do you bank with?

Thing is, if it is anyway tied to the folk in their house by virtue of stored details on a laptop etc, the person will be held liable for it and not be entitled to any refund etc.

[cocopop3011]

1 hour ago, pinnit2015 said:

Thing is, if it is anyway tied to the folk in their house by virtue of stored details on a laptop etc, the person will be held liable for it and not be entitled to any refund etc.

Yeah true actually, didn't think of it like that. @catapultaudio - Let us know hat the fraud team say tomorow. I sincerely hope they manage to help you somehow mate..

[ValDes]

Pretty f*cked up situation if I may  say... And certainly an alarming one  if you ask me. Maybe you should put your friendship/connection with such people into some serious consideration. 

Being a former IT myself, I don't believe in miracles nor mysterious hacks. Usually, there's always a much simple explanation. Guess you too share the same observations. 

The way you described it, I have no doubts your laptop has been used by one of more of these folks. Worst case scenario, might have been your GF as well, if I recall correctly, she's gambling too, right? 

[pinnit2015]

4 minutes ago, ValDes said:

Pretty f*cked up situation if I may  say... And certainly an alarming one  if you ask me. Maybe you should put your friendship/connection with such people into some serious consideration. 

Being a former IT myself, I don't believe in miracles nor mysterious hacks. Usually, there's always a much simple explanation. Guess you too share the same observations. 

The way you described it, I have no doubts your laptop has been used by one of more of these folks. Worst case scenario, might have been your GF as well, if I recall correctly, she's gambling too, right? 

If you've ever read, and i'm sad as i do, all the various data breaches.....the sophistication is in their simplicity: generic logins, people clicking on 'DPD Delivery Docket': basically, standard human error.

There's a reason why, when places like the ICO etc issue guidance it reads quite patronisingly - because that's how the majority of these occur. 

I think the fact the OP is questioning the 'friends' is a good indication of their gut feeling

[Gambler1234]

13 minutes ago, ValDes said:

Pretty f*cked up situation if I may  say... And certainly an alarming one  if you ask me. Maybe you should put your friendship/connection with such people into some serious consideration. 

Being a former IT myself, I don't believe in miracles nor mysterious hacks. Usually, there's always a much simple explanation. Guess you too share the same observations. 

The way you described it, I have no doubts your laptop has been used by one of more of these folks. Worst case scenario, might have been your GF as well, if I recall correctly, she's gambling too, right? 

even if his GF is using his card, it would first be flagged for duplicate accounts? Right? Furthermore if she played on his account technically that would be breaking the terms. 

Regardless good luck with resolving your issue.  Similar thing happened to a mate of mine and it took him a while to get it sorted, so fingers crossed for you. 

[ValDes]

The thing is a potential chargeback on the card will mos probably have some serious consequences, especially for a fellow UK punter. Kindred is a massive casino group and I have zero doubts that once the OP gets the 'chargeback-er' label with them, it will affect his activity across many other big UK gambling companies as well. Although Mr P claims no such CB DBs exist, I can recall few complaints over the years actually proving such statement wrong.  

[pinnit2015]

2 minutes ago, Gambler1234 said:

even if his GF is using his card, it would first be flagged for duplicate accounts? Right? Furthermore if she played on his account technically that would be breaking the terms. 

Regardless good luck with resolving your issue.  Similar thing happened to a mate of mine and it took him a while to get it sorted, so fingers crossed for you. 

Funnily enough this 'oh, this isn't your card' is normally only flagged at withdrawal stage.

Must be a simple bit of code, or agree with payment providers etc, to put something in that agrees the casino a/c holder name to the card name - some online sites do this but tbh a alot will allow you to use another persons card on your account. 

When i'd mine used it was in the name of a different user (Bad Pokerstars)

[pinnit2015]

12 minutes ago, ValDes said:

The thing is a potential chargeback on the card will mos probably have some serious consequences, especially for a fellow UK punter. Kindred is a massive casino group and I have zero doubts that once the OP gets the 'chargeback-er' label with them, it will affect his activity across many other big UK gambling companies as well. Although Mr P claims no such CB DBs exist, I can recall few complaints over the years actually proving such statement wrong.  

Didn't say it definitely didn't exist but questioned how legal it would be in a world on GDPR, especially given that not every chargeback is fraudulent

In the UK we had a construction company found guilty of maintaining a list of people in the Trades Union as 'troublemakers' and they were found guilty of x,y,z as passing it to other companies - don't see how this list is any different.

Per Privacy Notice, entitled to share information with fraud authorities but certainly, from what i've seen, not casino to casino. Plus, certainly not out with the EU. Sharing within the group is fine though but with other casinos?...HMMMMMM

If someone can tell me which shadowy organisation maintains it i'd like to run it by the ICO for clarification. 

Scope of DPA is quite large so not saying it's impossible but, putting folk on an arbitrary list which isn;t mentioned in any PN's or simply includes folk who have successfully had chargebacks upheld for legitimate reasons, sounds decidely iffy. 

[Gambler1234]

On 1/27/2020 at 10:47 AM, pinnit2015 said:

Funnily enough this 'oh, this isn't your card' is normally only flagged at withdrawal stage.

Must be a simple bit of code, or agree with payment providers etc, to put something in that agrees the casino a/c holder name to the card name - some online sites do this but tbh a alot will allow you to use another persons card on your account. 

When i'd mine used it was in the name of a different user (Bad Pokerstars)

I mean of course, as long as you are depositing and even with 50 cards they don't seem to notice anything...

[pinnit2015]

22 minutes ago, Gambler1234 said:

I mean of course, as long as you are depositing and even with 50 cards they don't seem to notice anything...

Change that to withdrawing and it's a different story

Moral of the story - it's ok to deposit dirty/stolen cash as long as you're not lucky enough to win and withdraw it. 

[pinnit2015]

Thinking about this a minute, and i suppose it could apply to many businesses etc, but aside from a term in the t's and c's stating 'the payment method must be in your name etc', what's the controls to prevent erroneous payment methods being used to deposit cash into the accounts?

You can argue that the control should be greater for online casinos because, you know, gamblers/possibly problem gamblers, will go to any length to get their fix. And being told that casinos are primed for money laundering (I've my doubts about the players being the money launderers....some of the casino owners, not so much )

Wonder if i deposit using Mrs P's account, don't win...finally win....go to withdraw...they say no....other than me get a CIFAS marker possibly, will they refund them the cash without having to go down the whole fraud route? Dunno how the practice works. 

[catapultaudio]

On 1/26/2020 at 10:08 PM, cocopop3011 said:

Hhave you confronted the people that were left in your flat that night and asked them? And is it not a los of £450 not £250? Have you asked the casino why the payments did not asked to be verified by your phone?

In regards to the next step, I guess the ony thing you can do right now is wait until tomorrow until you can speak to the fraud team. I know that's not the answer you're looking for but I personally don't find a quick way around this. Who do you bank with?

Hey coco, I wasn't very clear with my first post, as I did have other things come out of my account which were for legitimate purchases I'd made.... the total value of "Kindred" transactions adds up to just under £250. The bank claim that the "timeline of events", IE the fact I also made purchases on Amazon during the night whilst I was at work, makes it unlikely anybody but myself made the other transactions too... when I made those purchases I got a notification on my phone asking me to authorise the purchase, which I did, and they ask me why I did not notice these other transactions at that time... but I simply get the notification, authorise with my fingerprint, and thats it, I don't necesarily look at the banking app at all during that process...

Absolutely have confronted people, my girlfriend at the moment doesn't gamble no, but she has told me who continued to play after I left... of course she was assuming they were playing with their own money, but admits she paid little attention, she was too busy catching up on the weeks hollyoaks... lol... said person claims to have used their own card, and has even shown me a screenshot of their account proving so ... but that doesn't mean mine wasn't also used of course.

Thankfully I did manage to sort out a few quid to get me by in these interim few days before I get paid again, Action Fraud were helpful but just like with the regular police, theres always this feeling they are basically blaming you for everything... when I was burgled, well I left a window open so should learn my lesson.... when I have money stolen from my account like this, its my own fault for saving details in my computer.... I have to make a decision if I'm going to give the person I suspects details to them, as he doesn't appear he is going to admit to anything... the casino don't appear interested in helping either, and have already permanently closed at least two of my accounts simply for reporting it to them ... truly horrible situation all around.

TBH I'm now considering myself lucky it wasn't a more substantial amount of money or anything, on a regular month I probably wouldn't have been quite so upset, but right after christmas when things are already tight, my own budget has been £50 a week for gaming .... I mean come on, if I'm losing £250 to a casino I at least want the pleasure of doing the actual spinning! 

I'm gonna be a thousand times more careful about who sees my new physical card going forward though, thats for sure... this could have been avoided if i'd been much more careful with my CVV code, which isn't saved into any devices ... obviously my friends need an upgrade too, but drunk people are always going to do stupid things aren't they...

[cocopop3011]

2 hours ago, catapultaudio said:

Hey coco, I wasn't very clear with my first post, as I did have other things come out of my account which were for legitimate purchases I'd made.... the total value of "Kindred" transactions adds up to just under £250. The bank claim that the "timeline of events", IE the fact I also made purchases on Amazon during the night whilst I was at work, makes it unlikely anybody but myself made the other transactions too... when I made those purchases I got a notification on my phone asking me to authorise the purchase, which I did, and they ask me why I did not notice these other transactions at that time... but I simply get the notification, authorise with my fingerprint, and thats it, I don't necesarily look at the banking app at all during that process...

Absolutely have confronted people, my girlfriend at the moment doesn't gamble no, but she has told me who continued to play after I left... of course she was assuming they were playing with their own money, but admits she paid little attention, she was too busy catching up on the weeks hollyoaks... lol... said person claims to have used their own card, and has even shown me a screenshot of their account proving so ... but that doesn't mean mine wasn't also used of course.

Thankfully I did manage to sort out a few quid to get me by in these interim few days before I get paid again, Action Fraud were helpful but just like with the regular police, theres always this feeling they are basically blaming you for everything... when I was burgled, well I left a window open so should learn my lesson.... when I have money stolen from my account like this, its my own fault for saving details in my computer.... I have to make a decision if I'm going to give the person I suspects details to them, as he doesn't appear he is going to admit to anything... the casino don't appear interested in helping either, and have already permanently closed at least two of my accounts simply for reporting it to them ... truly horrible situation all around.

TBH I'm now considering myself lucky it wasn't a more substantial amount of money or anything, on a regular month I probably wouldn't have been quite so upset, but right after christmas when things are already tight, my own budget has been £50 a week for gaming .... I mean come on, if I'm losing £250 to a casino I at least want the pleasure of doing the actual spinning! 

I'm gonna be a thousand times more careful about who sees my new physical card going forward though, thats for sure... this could have been avoided if i'd been much more careful with my CVV code, which isn't saved into any devices ... obviously my friends need an upgrade too, but drunk people are always going to do stupid things aren't they...

Awww man! I feel so sad reading that. I don't mean this to sound rude but any person who would ever do that is not a friend. Drunk or not. Secondly, change your card and never EVER show anyone. Even my closest of friends and family don't know and have never had access to my card. My other half won't even go into my purse. If I ask him to grab my card to pay for something he won't, he'll just hand me my purse. 

Thirdly - how are action fraud deling with this for you?

Before Christmas my partner had a phone call from action fraud about a transaction that was due to go out of his account for £49 (non gambling related) and they needed to verify whether or not he had authorised the payment. He told them he hadn't, he'd never even heard of the website before. They told him they'll cancel the payment. Well they didn't and a couple of days later he noticed the money had been taken. He was going to leave it and I said absoultely not! Together we phoned the bank and I had also Googled the name of the website which raised flags straight away as it was just saying fraud, fraud, fraud. The bank were amazing and credited the money by 6pm and passed the details over to the police. 

I know that situation is completely different but I do the fraud team to be very helpful. Ask if they can look at your pattern of gaming and see that those deposits that night are very unusual for you.

[pinnit2015]

And here's one of the benefits of gambling with a CC @ValDes, not only do you get s75 protection but if money is taken, you're not disadvantaged whilst the bank perform their investigations (unless you rely on CC's which, in that case, you've bigger issues than simply gambling) and CC companies are far more likely to simply refund you than if it was from your bank 

Dare i say it...it gives rise to a safer environment 

[pinnit2015]

12 hours ago, catapultaudio said:

Hey coco, I wasn't very clear with my first post, as I did have other things come out of my account which were for legitimate purchases I'd made.... the total value of "Kindred" transactions adds up to just under £250. The bank claim that the "timeline of events", IE the fact I also made purchases on Amazon during the night whilst I was at work, makes it unlikely anybody but myself made the other transactions too... when I made those purchases I got a notification on my phone asking me to authorise the purchase, which I did, and they ask me why I did not notice these other transactions at that time... but I simply get the notification, authorise with my fingerprint, and thats it, I don't necesarily look at the banking app at all during that process...

Absolutely have confronted people, my girlfriend at the moment doesn't gamble no, but she has told me who continued to play after I left... of course she was assuming they were playing with their own money, but admits she paid little attention, she was too busy catching up on the weeks hollyoaks... lol... said person claims to have used their own card, and has even shown me a screenshot of their account proving so ... but that doesn't mean mine wasn't also used of course.

Thankfully I did manage to sort out a few quid to get me by in these interim few days before I get paid again, Action Fraud were helpful but just like with the regular police, theres always this feeling they are basically blaming you for everything... when I was burgled, well I left a window open so should learn my lesson.... when I have money stolen from my account like this, its my own fault for saving details in my computer.... I have to make a decision if I'm going to give the person I suspects details to them, as he doesn't appear he is going to admit to anything... the casino don't appear interested in helping either, and have already permanently closed at least two of my accounts simply for reporting it to them ... truly horrible situation all around.

TBH I'm now considering myself lucky it wasn't a more substantial amount of money or anything, on a regular month I probably wouldn't have been quite so upset, but right after christmas when things are already tight, my own budget has been £50 a week for gaming .... I mean come on, if I'm losing £250 to a casino I at least want the pleasure of doing the actual spinning! 

I'm gonna be a thousand times more careful about who sees my new physical card going forward though, thats for sure... this could have been avoided if i'd been much more careful with my CVV code, which isn't saved into any devices ... obviously my friends need an upgrade too, but drunk people are always going to do stupid things aren't they...

In all my years of a. being drunk and b. having mates who are 3 sheets to the wind, have i ever used anyone's account without their knowledge.

Time to catapult them away IMO. 

Mrs P is a bit of a fire cracker (being an angry Scot) and probablyone of the bluntest people i know - i wouldn't needed to have done anything, she'd have battered them on her own 

[ValDes]

2 hours ago, pinnit2015 said:

And here's one of the benefits of gambling with a CC @ValDes, not only do you get s75 protection but if money is taken, you're not disadvantaged whilst the bank perform their investigations (unless you rely on CC's which, in that case, you've bigger issues than simply gambling) and CC companies are far more likely to simply refund you than if it was from your bank 

Dare i say it...it gives rise to a safer environment 

Must be 'reported' to GC in a matter of urgency! What an elegant reason in addition to the already announced ones justifying CC ban for gambling... 

[cocopop3011]

@catapultaudio It's been a while since we heard off you now mate! How you holding up? Did you get any answers after?