Casino rights/rules?

[Hmayes999]

Hiya,

So, I've been having to go through a lot of checks recently with casinos cracking down on the Source of Income and Source of Wealth checks. Completely fine, some take longer than others to complete, but I get it, they need to be done. Kudos to the casinos staying on top of this.

However, my most recent checks have hit something of a brick wall. I am unemployed, playing with savings I've accrued from years of full/part time work since I was 16 (now 25) and have never had a problem with casinos in the past (despite how this sounds) as I have proven my funds sufficient. With the casino in question, I have been sending over documents such as bank statements, paypal statements, screenshots of casino winnings etc to prove my source of income as gambling winnings. Usual stuff. Except, after complying and sending exactly what they specify they needed from me, each document has been shot down as unacceptable. Okay, annoying, but maybe they're being extra thorough? 

Today, we reached the point where the casino has thrown they're hands up and said they simply cannot accept me as a player because I am unemployed and gambling winnings aren't accepted.

Eh? Then why have me sending screenshots, highlighting documents etc for the past few weeks? 

In their words, my documents were "not clear enough to show your income even if it is from other sites."

Wha....? O.O

I sent them statements showing every incoming and outgoing payment from the past three months. Some clearly stating the name of the casino paying my winnings to me. So....

Then came this: "this is also not a sustainable income and so we cannot allow someone to play who's only income in winnings from other casinos - that is unless it was a single large amount (like £100k or more.)"

£100k? Never has a casino told me I have to have £100k to play. Is this a thing? I'm not depositing even 5% of that a week...

So, basically I'm looking for a little advice here from those out there who are more knowledgeable about these things, because I honestly don't know whether I'm overreacting or if these are and always have been the rules. Am I crazy? Can casinos do this now? I get protecting players from gambling more than they're means, but this feels... extreme. 

Can a casino close your accounts and block you from playing for having less that £100k coming in?

Any advice is welcome. If the casino is in the right, fair play. I'd just like to know the facts in case this happens again...

Thanks to any and all!

Holly

[Fiekie247]

Well I would assume this is CASUMO casino?

Well I do not think that you need to earn 100K, I guess they figure out an estimate on what your average deposits are and then work it out from there more or less, or that is what I think.

 

@pinnit2015 @Afi4wins @ValDes Can maybe give a bit more info, as I never had any issues with SOW before and it all went smooth.

Just wait for their reply.

[Hmayes999]

Not Casumo  I don't want to post the name as I'm not here to point fingers, just looking for some advice/wisdom.

Yeah, that's what I thought too! But £100k for a player who deposits maybe a maximum of £3000 a week?  Seems a lot to me...

Thanks for your reply and tags! It would be great to hear from them, too

 

 

[Afi4wins]

Let me be very blunt about this...casinos that request for my Source Of Wealth documents are never accepted by me! I have closed all my newly opened accounts at such casinos, but before that, I would give them a little gift first...a kite...with a note..."GO FLY A KITE!" 

Where my money comes from is none of their business!

How I use my money is none of their business!

Whether I have enough money to sustain my slotting hobby is none of their business!

Any casino that cannot accept 'standard verification documents' would get an account closure request from me...immediately...no second thoughts...no hesitations...there are many more casinos out there where I can enjoy my hobby without putting myself into totally absurd situations and unnecessary stresses!

Gambling Commission's rulings have a good purpose, but casino managements should always use their own discretion in adhering to the rulings...not simply implementing them blindly and without putting much thought for the non-addicted gamblers. If a player is addicted, then by all means, apply the Responsible Gambling rulings.

New gamblers should always be treated as innocent until proven guilty of addiction!

My advice is, like it or not, dump that casino and play elsewhere...good casino or not! 

[Hmayes999]

Okay, that makes me feel better. Thought I was going to end up agonising over this for a few weeks, but yeah, you're right. Plenty more fish, etc...  Pretty sure the "rules" they've made up are *****, anyway. Thanks guys!

[pinnit2015]

3 hours ago, Hmayes999 said:

Okay, that makes me feel better. Thought I was going to end up agonising over this for a few weeks, but yeah, you're right. Plenty more fish, etc...  Pretty sure the "rules" they've made up are *****, anyway. Thanks guys!

They're not the casino's rules, well they are, but they're (most of the time) not based on the legislation (the AML Directives etc) - the AML do not assign arbitrary amounts to this. If a casino quotes these at you, they are making it up. More importantly, it will possibly be against the AML: the whole point is you RISK PROFILE  clients and base your asks of them on this profile, not whether they hit 10k, 20k - that will be deemed to be an incorrect interpretation of the AML. 

Personal experience is casinos's are completely clueless on how this applies. The key point is YOU do not need to prove/nor they, that the money is clean, They just need to make sure that the activity is in line with the clients risk profile - hence, why new gamblers will attract greater scrutiny/risk, as they are unknown to the business. 

Common mistake - hey, Mr Casino, the money comes from my bank so it must be clean as the bank do their checks. Wrong - this can't be used as a defence for a casino not performing checks. 

If i earn 40k a year, am depositing 5 k a week but show the casino inheritance etc - that's enough; they are not obligated to trawl through on a transaction by transaction basis. 

This isn't going to go away but some casinos are doing it correctly (in my experience). 

Sounds like the casino is getting RG confused with SOW or something in between. 

[pinnit2015]

Here, from my own experience, are casino's who apply common sense with SOW:

Redbet

Anyone in the L&L Group - All British etc

Casumo, whilst a decent outfit, can be a bit patchy but they're relatively fair. 

The clueless:

The whole MT Secure sites - boy, oh boy, they really need to invest in staff who know what they're talking about. Especially Rizk. 

Stakers Casino - decided to invoke SOW after <500 quid of deposits. Moron's, who don't even know what they're talking about (will probably get a job with MTS)

[ValDes]

Hey there @Hmayes999 and welcome to AskGamblers Forum  

Tend to agree with what Mr PinniT suggested above - the casino created kinda of a mix between common RG, AML and most recent UKGC 'instructions' & regulations that ended up you facing such an issue. 

Tend also to believe the operator is having an access to data referring to your gambling activities (deposit/withdrawal info, RG issues, etc) with another casino and/or group of casinos. No other way to justify their ridiculous 100K statement. 

[ValDes]

19 hours ago, Afi4wins said:

Let me be very blunt about this...casinos that request for my Source Of Wealth documents are never accepted by me! I have closed all my newly opened accounts at such casinos, but before that, I would give them a little gift first...a kite...with a note..."GO FLY A KITE!" 

Where my money comes from is none of their business!

How I use my money is none of their business!

Whether I have enough money to sustain my slotting hobby is none of their business!

Any casino that cannot accept 'standard verification documents' would get an account closure request from me...immediately...no second thoughts...no hesitations...there are many more casinos out there where I can enjoy my hobby without putting myself into totally absurd situations and unnecessary stresses!

Gambling Commission's rulings have a good purpose, but casino managements should always use their own discretion in adhering to the rulings...not simply implementing them blindly and without putting much thought for the non-addicted gamblers. If a player is addicted, then by all means, apply the Responsible Gambling rulings.

New gamblers should always be treated as innocent until proven guilty of addiction!

My advice is, like it or not, dump that casino and Play elsewhere...good casino or not! 

Couldn't say it better! 'Gambling Poet' - that's what you really are, Afi-san! 

[hajnrih]

19 hours ago, Afi4wins said:

Let me be very blunt about this...casinos that request for my Source Of Wealth documents are never accepted by me! I have closed all my newly opened accounts at such casinos, but before that, I would give them a little gift first...a kite...with a note..."GO FLY A KITE!" 

Where my money comes from is none of their business!

How I use my money is none of their business!

Whether I have enough money to sustain my slotting hobby is none of their business!

Any casino that cannot accept 'standard verification documents' would get an account closure request from me...immediately...no second thoughts...no hesitations...there are many more casinos out there where I can enjoy my hobby without putting myself into totally absurd situations and unnecessary stresses!

Gambling Commission's rulings have a good purpose, but casino managements should always use their own discretion in adhering to the rulings...not simply implementing them blindly and without putting much thought for the non-addicted gamblers. If a player is addicted, then by all means, apply the Responsible Gambling rulings.

New gamblers should always be treated as innocent until proven guilty of addiction!

My advice is, like it or not, dump that casino and Play elsewhere...good casino or not! 

Yeah, that's why I will never play again at Alf casino or any other from that group. 

[pinnit2015]

They also have to be explicit in what they are using it for. No room for ambiguity or using information for purpose B when they ask for it based on purpose A.

So, if they ask for it for SOW, you supply and then they start RG’ing on you, report them to the ICO for breach of GDPR. 

[Fiekie247]

2 hours ago, hajnrih said:

Yeah, that's why I will never Play again at Alf casino or any other from that group. 

Besides SOW - You have to take a selfie, with the website background on your laptop and you logged into your account. Ridiculous.

 

[pinnit2015]

3 hours ago, Fiekie247 said:

Besides SOW - You have to take a selfie, with the website background on your laptop and you logged into your account. Ridiculous.

 

Ever tried to verify with Bet at Home? Passports aren't good enough, nor are the electronic checks on electoral registers seemingly: nope, they want a selfie with another form of ID.

Getting to the Final of The Hunger Games would be easier - go away. 

[Fiekie247]

1 hour ago, pinnit2015 said:

Ever tried to verify with Bet at Home? Passports aren't good enough, nor are the electronic checks on electoral registers seemingly: nope, they want a selfie with another form of ID.

Getting to the Final of The Hunger games would be easier - go away. 

I actually tried  registering there but I am restricted it seems. 

[pinnit2015]

1 hour ago, Fiekie247 said:

I actually tried  registering there but I am restricted it seems. 

Bullet dodged. 

[Fiekie247]

So it makes me wonder what ID they would want? That notarized ones? I thought passport would be great since they want one with expiry date? 

[pinnit2015]

You’d think so... dunno why a passport was ok without a selfie (just not accepted for some reason), yet driving licence needed selfie.

thinking some of these clowns make it up as it goes along. Ended up closing account in same day and even that was a mission

[pinnit2015]

Here's the approach being taken by Slotsmillion - limiting your depo limits, until/if you send in anything else...When i first got this I was a bit 'seriously?' but, in the age whereby casino's are incorrectly holding onto W/D (but allowing deposits) until SOW is done, it's maybe not a bad alternative; sort of a half way house. 

HOWEVER, what they're basically doing here is taking SOW down to (yet again), another arbitrary amount (in this case 300 quid), which isn't commensurate with the AML (unless they argue it falls outwith the SOW guidance, as it's simple an account limiting function)

The plus point is that as a player you know where you stand (unless they do adhoc requests for SOW) and, unlike RIZK's a""e over elbow approach, at least there's an air of transparency about it. 

 

 

[pinnit2015]

Compare the above to two casinos who've never asked me for anything, despite having more depos this year (not as much as last year as my play for the last 4 or so months has fallen) - see how they're all doing different things - MTS sites tend to SOW players at 10k

 

[judasgoat]

14 hours ago, pinnit2015 said:

Compare the above to two casinos who've never asked me for anything, despite having more depos this year (not as much as last year as my Play for the last 4 or so months has fallen) - see how they're all doing different things - MTS sites tend to SOW players at 10k

 

the name of the casino is?

[pinnit2015]

6 hours ago, judasgoat said:

the name of the casino is?

Redbet and Casumo - though Casumos recent approach to SOW leaves a lot to be desired. 

[ValDes]

On 10/5/2019 at 2:01 PM, pinnit2015 said:

Here's the approach being taken by SlotsMillion - limiting your depo limits, until/if you send in anything else...When i first got this I was a bit 'seriously?' but, in the age whereby casino's are incorrectly holding onto W/D (but allowing deposits) until SOW is done, it's maybe not a bad alternative; sort of a half way house. 

HOWEVER, what they're basically doing here is taking SOW down to (yet again), another arbitrary amount (in this case 300 quid), which isn't commensurate with the AML (unless they argue it falls outwith the SOW guidance, as it's simple an account limiting function)

The plus point is that as a player you know where you stand (unless they do adhoc requests for SOW) and, unlike RIZK's a""e over elbow approach, at least there's an air of transparency about it. 

 

 

I believe you should find your answers within this 10-minute read... Or not.... :) 

https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/Customer-Interaction-Formal-Guidance-Remote-July-2019.pdf

[pinnit2015]

3 hours ago, ValDes said:

I believe you should find your answers within this 10-minute read... Or not....

https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/Customer-Interaction-Formal-Guidance-Remote-July-2019.pdf

I get the identification bit but applying 300 quid to every single customer in the UK (which i think is what they've done if the other folk i've heard of are anything to go by), doesn't really seem to meet that....

I'll have a look later when more time.....

[albertmads]

Wow! I like it, I'll try it later