Complaints

[ValDes]

Hey there, 

Please keep in mind that if the operator is UKGC licensed you are supposed to forward your complaint to the relevant ADR entity appointed by the casino. There should be detailed information about ADR entity and procedure somewhere on the casino website and/or within their general terms and conditions. 

Hope the above. Let us know in case you need further assistance and good luck. 

[Wonderwin]

I believe with your comment about their recent fine that I'm also having issues with that same casino under responsible gambling and their failure to abide with their social responsibility, and probably money laundering laws too. If I'm right then don't expect any sympathy or even any response beyond a final 'we've done nothing wrong'.  Iv made a complaint via ask gamblers now and I hope they see this and recognise the trend whilst hopefully forcing change on this business. Good luck 

[Steven339]

I’ve sent you a pm, it’s for my son I’m just looking after it. I have found some very interesting e mails from them, I have a good legal team looking over all this information but before anything is disclosed I believe they should have the right to respond.

what I will say is this so far with the evidence we have it would be very hard for them to argue against this, plus a member of there staff who dealt with the account has also left but thankfully my son kept all the e mails between the 2.

 

[pinnit2015]

17 hours ago, Steven339 said:

I’ve sent you a pm, it’s for my son I’m just looking after it. I have found some very interesting e mails from them, I have a good legal team looking over all this information but before anything is disclosed I believe they should have the right to respond.

what I will say is this so far with the evidence we have it would be very hard for them to argue against this, plus a member of there staff who dealt with the account has also left but thankfully my son kept all the e mails between the 2.

 

There were recent fines dished out to the Gamsey's group, only in the last few weeks, that give you an insight into the UKGC's position. Most of the them seem to come down to A. Casino had no risk assessment policy or B. They had one, they just didn't adhere to it in terms of monitoring accounts.

The UKGC, IMO, need to be vetting these policies - given their pathological obsession with RG atm.  This should mean that, upon the policy being green lit by them, all casinos must do is follow it and it should absolve them of their RG responsibilities. Whether the person is a problem gambler, or gambling addict as we used to say, then becomes irrelevant. 

Or, what will happen, is that casinos eliminate the risk by simply closing the accounts of those whom they have the faintest whiff of RG issues. Or credit checks start.

What's odd is that RG never really flags up when it's casino streamers are lumping 100 quid bets on, whilst seemingly living in their grandma's basement (could it be that it's casino money they're playing with? Surely not)

Or, reversing is still permitted.

We're at a watershed with gambling in the UK - there is obviously an agenda afoot in some of the more liberal parties and there is a risk that most punters (who aren't GA) are subjected to a draconian regime.  And that's only gonna result in more pain for problem gamblers - they'll be off to a non- licensed regime, whereby they'll have zero protection. 

 

[TheAverageGuy]

3 minutes ago, pinnit2015 said:

 

We're at a watershed with gambling in the UK - there is obviously an agenda afoot in some of the more liberal parties and there is a risk that most punters (who aren't GA) are subjected to a draconian regime.  And that's only gonna result in more pain for problem gamblers - they'll be off to a non- licensed regime, whereby they'll have zero protection. 

 

If government bodies do, what government bodies do, seems to be working as intended.. a massive cash cow.

[Steven339]

The problem I have is having read the statements on this particular website in relation to responsible gambling is its contradicting itself by allowing somebody to gamble this amount without properly checking the source of income and if the players requires any help. Surely 12+ account closures over a year should ring alarm bells like it did with some of the other Casinos instead they did the opposite as it was good for business. No sooner was the account closed the so called vip team would be on the phone the next day. With the others after 3 account closures the concern was raised and properly addressed. That’s without even going into the e mails he received which was just as alarming. 

[pinnit2015]

5 hours ago, Steven339 said:

The problem I have is having read the statements on this particular website in relation to responsible gambling is its contradicting itself by allowing somebody to gamble this amount without properly checking the source of income and if the players requires any help. Surely 12+ account closures over a year should ring alarm bells like it did with some of the other Casinos instead they did the opposite as it was good for business. No sooner was the account closed the so called vip team would be on the phone the next day. With the others after 3 account closures the concern was raised and properly addressed. That’s without even going into the e mails he received which was just as alarming. 

https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/news-action-and-statistics/news/2019/Platinum-Gaming-Ltd-to-pay-1.6m-for-social-responsibility-and-money-laundering-failures.aspx

deposited 659k, lost 619k: sweet Jesus. In 21 days. Though this is probably at the most extreme part of the spectrum. 

that case probably has a lot of parallels with your sons.

is he now gamstopped?  - think all U.K. should be on it now. 

[Steven339]

Wow that’s crazy.

Yes he’s registered now. I have also wrote to all the operators from his e mail ensuring it’s noted in the meantime. All operators have come back to us already confirming it’s noted and accounts suspended. 

I have also thanked the operators who didn’t allow my son to continue as I believe they acted with integrity and social responsibility. My son tells me he even had a call from one of them very later on one evening from a polite lady from customer services as he had made a large deposit from his credit card, she asked if he was ok, been drinking and aware of his deposit risk and help if needed. This was very reassuring to hear.

My son is accepts his part too and is working with all the parties to get the help he needs and I thank you guys for the information you have provided. 

[TheAverageGuy]

New on the scene, free to use, rumored to be the best thing since sliced computer wires for self exclusion.

https://betblocker.org/

[Steven339]

Thank you, will have a look later today. 

i received an update yesterday advising they are still looking into this matter abs it’s currently with this vip team , after a chased them. So will keep you guys updated. 

[pinnit2015]

In line with TAG - Bet Blocker looks a great piece of equipment. Given that Gamstop is riddled with get arounds, they should have gotten these guys to develop it. 

Might not need Gamstop given the amount of casinos shutting shop! (hopefully the UKGC refuses BETAT's appeal against their licence being stripped later - one more dud thrown to the flames)

If not already done so, might want to convince your son to hand control of his finances over to you - it's not a solution I'd be particularly keen on but, as a fire blanket approach, it will help to douse the addiction flames during their infancy and at least convince him that gambling isn't really as enjoyable as we all think. 

[Steven339]

Thanks yeah that’s being looked at already, I’ve had to pay of the loans he took while playing  so now we have a structured approach to getting back on track..

I’ve also ensured I have access to his online banking so I can monitor any transactions for the time being. He hasn’t objected to this and  believe the right people are helping now. 

Having learned a great deal from you guys over the last month there does seem to be so much inconsistency in the way each operator approaches it’s responsible gambling approach. The company in question has done the complete opposite to the others in my opinion. Likewise they said they would respond within 48-72h but it’s been over a week without nothing, so I need to plan the next steps now. We are in the Process of writing  the formal letters now as a draft

 

 

[TheAverageGuy]

https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/for-gambling-businesses/Compliance/General-compliance/Enforcement-report-2019/Enforcement-report-2019.aspx

[pinnit2015]

4 hours ago, Steven339 said:

Thanks yeah that’s being looked at already, I’ve had to pay of the loans he took while playing  so now we have a structured approach to getting back on track..

I’ve also ensured I have access to his online banking so I can monitor any transactions for the time being. He hasn’t objected to this and  believe the right people are helping now. 

Having learned a great deal from you guys over the last month there does seem to be so much inconsistency in the way each operator approaches it’s responsible gambling approach. The company in question has done the complete opposite to the others in my opinion. Likewise they said they would respond within 48-72h but it’s been over a week without nothing, so I need to plan the next steps now. We are in the Process of writing  the formal letters now as a draft

 

 

The next stage will be affordability assessments in line with those you go through when applying for a loan or a mortgage. If I was a gambling business, it’s the natural progression and arguably the only way to discharge your duties.Not for everyone but again, risk based.

That will be difficult anyhow; you’d need to take recycled wins into account but I imagine it will come soon enough.

The RG process is as varied as KYC is, or was. I have never had to supply Will Hill or Coral with pics of cards or utility bills, yet Some casinos want a DNA test. 

You will find it’s varied as the UKGC don’t really give casinos a A-Z or what their procedures should be but leave it up to them as to what they should put in place to meet it. AFAIK there’s no tick box approach.

Plus, it’s based on their risk appetite: Casino A may look at things and go:

1. 10 million fine if we don’t do this right 

2. 15 million costs and possible licence revocation if we implement super dooper controls

and... they come to the conclusion it’s better to take their chances with number 1. I’m sure some have had that thinking. 

Casinos have far to go - half of them are that clueless they don’t even know what they’re asking for. I’d one asking me for docs and when I asked why they said AML regulations. Then they said RG. 

[TheAverageGuy]

I'm thinking Costa Rico business permits or curacao white labels are starting to look pretty damn appealing so some of the UKGC/MGA small fish/bottom feeder types currently fighting for chum after the sharks have had their fill... probably to a number of the sharks as well. 

[Steven339]

Good afternoon quick update after chasing again today it’s been assigned to another part of the betting group which I understand own this casino and they just trade under a different brand. They advised we will hear within 28 days

[Steven339]

Does anybody know if we are still entitled to my sons statements even if the account is closed should I need it?

also what other data will be available upon request 

 

thanks for your help 

[pinnit2015]

3 hours ago, Steven339 said:

Does anybody know if we are still entitled to my sons statements even if the account is closed should I need it?

also what other data will be available upon request 

 

thanks for your help 

When you close an account you kick start the 5/6 year retention policy for a lot of information that relates to their legal obligations (AML/RG etc), or basically anything that they 'may' need or be asked to call upon. So, basically, anything that they aren't bound to hold by legal obligation or to show their licensing compliance, is erased upon closure. EG. Your KYC documentation is held for all those years; possibly transactions as well - they would relate to RG possibly. For example, I find it hard to believe they'd erase transactions so soon after closure as, should there be a ML concern, that'd be the first port of call. Should also have the chat transcripts if they relate to RG. 

Check the privacy policy of the casino - it will tell you in broad terms what they erase. Sadly, I don;t have access to a typical casino retention and disposal policy. 

Then contact the Data Protection Officer.  

[Steven339]

Great thanks I will ask my son to request this once his has heard back from the case manager, from the group I will post a response removing names of course once this has been received. 

We would be lost without this forum so glad I found it and you guys have been most helpful.

we really wanted to use the complaints platform but it seems that the casino wanted to avoid this...,

 

regards  

[pinnit2015]

2 hours ago, Steven339 said:

Great thanks I will ask my son to request this once his has heard back from the case manager, from the group I will post a response removing names of course once this has been received. 

We would be Lost without this forum so glad I found it and you guys have been most helpful.

we really wanted to use the complaints platform but it seems that the casino wanted to avoid this...,

 

regards  

Valdes will know more but there’s been a pattern developing: a lot of casinos are telling players they MUST use their ADR, no other, and they will not discuss anything with another complaints site. 

They're using GDPR as the reason which I think is BS. 

Tends to be the bigger ones doing this; some of the smaller ones will still, quite rightly, address the players concerns via whatever medium they want to.

[Steven339]

So today my son received an e mail in error from the operator that should have gone to the data manager anyways we have been asked to provide driving licence and a utilities bill so that they can be sure we are who we say we are.

no problem with this we have sent over what they requested so will await the information.

So worrying what has been going on and the more I read from my sons e mails the more concerned I become. these online venues need better regulations,

 

[pinnit2015]

1 hour ago, Steven339 said:

So today my son received an e mail in error from the operator that should have gone to the data manager anyways we have been asked to provide driving licence and a utilities bill so that they can be sure we are who we say we are.

no problem with this we have sent over what they requested so will await the information.

So worrying what has been going on and the more I read from my sons e mails the more concerned I become. these online venues need better regulations,

 

To be fair, the U.K., regulation wise is probably the safest places to play for players.  There’s the argument that it’s becoming over regulated and, personally, I would air on agreeing with that.

Regulation wise we have a national self exclusion scheme, RG controls, RG in the licence, the new 5th May rules.  Regulation wise it’s all there.

The weaknesses fall down on RG with the UKGC saying they aren’t an ombudsman for it and ADRs not looking at it. Definitely a gap to be filled and Gamstop needs serious improvements as well as some casinos not complying with the 5th May changes. 

If you compare now to 5 years ago it’s night and day. Yes, there are continued poor performance by casinos but it’s definitely tightened up IMO. 

The problem that you have, and not directed at your son, is that you are possibly pushing responsibility for people’s actions onto the casinos by the argument of ‘ you should have known them asking for a bonus shows they’re an addict’ That’s a v dangerous path and one that will see hiccups along the way.

[Steven339]

1 hour ago, pinnit2015 said:

To be fair, the U.K., regulation wise is probably the safest places to Play for players.  There’s the argument that it’s becoming over regulated and, personally, I would air on agreeing with that.

Regulation wise we have a national self exclusion scheme, RG controls, RG in the licence, the new 5th May rules.  Regulation wise it’s all there.

The weaknesses fall down on RG with the UKGC saying they aren’t an ombudsman for it and ADRs not looking at it. Definitely a gap to be filled and Gamstop needs serious improvements as well as some casinos not complying with the 5th May changes. 

If you compare now to 5 years ago it’s night and day. Yes, there are continued poor performance by casinos but it’s definitely tightened up IMO. 

The problem that you have, and not directed at your son, is that you are possibly pushing responsibility for people’s actions onto the casinos by the argument of ‘ you should have known them asking for a bonus shows they’re an addict’ That’s a v dangerous path and one that will see hiccups along the way.

I agree with that people should take responsibility and I would like to make it very clear I’m not defending my sons actions. He needs to take responsibility absolutely no excuses. My reasons for coming to the forum was to understand what the regulations are and to ensure this particular casino is doing there part to ensure responsible gambling.

in particular as an example somebody that earns say 25k. Year and gambled say 125k a year without question to me should sound alarm bells to a casino if know of course. Then If the member for example closed his account say 12 times over the year should have been questioned instead they called the following day to try and reopen the account as its good for business. 

I can’t publish any e mails yet for obvious reasons Taking into account the limited information already given then I still can’t accept they have not breached some kind of rules. They perused him without question yet 2 other casinos did the opposite after just 3 closures they recognised the problem asked the relevant questions and didn’t offer to invite hi to an exclusive  event or  tickets to a high profile football match. Instead they permanently closed his account, 

 

 

[pinnit2015]

11 hours ago, Steven339 said:

I agree with that people should take responsibility and I would like to make it very clear I’m not defending my sons actions. He needs to take responsibility absolutely no excuses. My reasons for coming to the forum was to understand what the regulations are and to ensure this particular casino is doing there part to ensure responsible gambling.

in particular as an example somebody that earns say 25k. Year and gambled say 125k a year without question to me should sound alarm bells to a casino if know of course. Then If the member for example closed his account say 12 times over the year should have been questioned instead they called the following day to try and reopen the account as its good for business. 

I can’t publish any e mails yet for obvious reasons Taking into account the limited information already given then I still can’t accept they have not breached some kind of rules. They perused him without question yet 2 other casinos did the opposite after just 3 closures they recognised the problem asked the relevant questions and didn’t offer to invite hi to an exclusive  event or  tickets to a high profile football match. Instead they permanently closed his account, 

 

 

I agree that, particularly with regards to the events and tickets (coupled with the account closures), the UKGC will/would find that they will have breached the RG element of their licence. 

The bolded bit is where it gets kinda messy: someone may earn 25k but quite easily afford to deposit that amount in a casino: it could be that they won 250k in another casino, it could be that they were left 2 million as part of someones estate etc. This is where RG and Source of Funds overlap - it's also an area that casino's, from GDPR purposes, breach the data protection legislation.

Like I said, personally, I don't want anymore RG responsibilities threw at the casino's - i think we have enough. What i would say is that the UKGC needs to be a bit more proactive in terms of vetting the casinos' policies. What i mean by that is that all the casinos are operating with various different approaches to this - all it would take is, as part of the licensing, would be for someone there (new/re-applying) to review the casino's RG policies in place (trigger points/actions etc): once they've seen that, and tacitly approved, then casinos will know that if they comply with that, it will be sufficient. There'll be no ambiguity. May sound like i want more micro management but i think that'd be a small price to pay for more invasive legislation. 

It's the same for t's and c's. We have a default position of people saying 'ah but you agreed to the terms' - so what? Unfair terms and conditions do not trump the Consumers Rights Act - how some casino's terms passed the licensing test, is a mystery to me: you can't waive your rights under that Act by ticking a box agreeing to unfair terms. Sadly these cases are only ever tested in court obviously.  

As an auditor by trade, i could never be held to account for not detecting a fraud - where i would be open to criticism is if my procedures were not sufficient to detect it - a subtle, but key difference.  Same rationale applies for casinos i think.

I'll tell you why you'll probably, if it goes all the way up, succeed  -if you ask that casino for their risk assessment policy, on how they monitor/review/check, i'd hazard a guess you'd not see anything, because they don't have it. Seen it with Casumo and they're one of the larger casinos. 

Worth noting that the bolded bit will see them in breach, likely, of not just RG but AML legislation. 

[Steven339]

Thanks very much for your input I appreciate you guys obviously know a lot more than myself so we will just have they come back with.

some very good points raised in the above very informative post.