Unachievable Claims Should Be Banned!

[Afi4wins]

Of late, I've been seeing some games that have incredible maximum win statements, like 'win up to 60,000x bet' and higher! I read that one game even has it up to 100,000x bet! Needless to say, these games are of the 'Extremely High Volatility' kind (shown as having a 5-Lightnings rating by certain game providers), but not many of such games are around, thankfully, but it does seem to me to be the 'new trend' nowadays!

About 10 years or so ago, some of the best games around already have this 'Extremely High Volatility' rating, games such as Immortal Romance, Thunderstruck II, Dead Or Alive, and Jack And The Beanstalk, just to name a few, but not including Jackpot games like Mega Moolah. Mega Fortune and the rest.

How to get this stated Max Win? With the old games, it is very simple and straightforward - just get 5 Wild Desire Reels, or 5 Wild Reels, or 5 Wild Harp reels...and the max win is won! 

How about with recent new games? Well, how to get them is totally ambiguous, with no direct ways or directions, and you need to do some serious maths to really 'see' how such a win can be won! To me, it's like making a statement of 'win up to 100,000x bet'...(but hidden from view: ... on Mars). What it actually imply is that you need to use all the miniscule wins from the game, gradually build a rocket, fly to Mars, and then find that elusive '100,000x Treasure Chest' somewhere on Mars!

Is that even possible? The software providers would certainly say "YES, it is possible", because they have already made such statements in their games. Can they show proof of such a win? "Oh geees...that would be like trying to show a true image of a Black Hole!" 

So there you go folks...what the software providers are saying is that it is indeed possible to achieve such a ridiculous win, but the sole winner may be generations away from you!

My big question is...why are the Gambling and Licensing Authorities allowing such statements to be made??? Are they so gullible as to actually believe in such a statement...without any proof, purely on a mathematical possibility, even it means thousands of years to get it???

To me, such statements of 'win up to ??,???x bet' should be completely BANNED...so as not to mislead us players! Yes, the casinos have their eyes on those filthy rich gamblers (not that I care a damn about them) who only know how to spend tons of money, enjoy life, and not care a damn about anything else...but struggling gamblers, like the majority of us, may get killed by such a statement! Yes, it can actually be THAT SERIOUS!!!

Having said all that...what do you think? 

[pinnit2015]

They will have hit that value in the twenty billion spins they did in the testing phase; it’s part of the lab testing specs for game certification I believe where they detail all the permutations. 

Whilst I don’t think places that promote this are lying, they are leaving out valuable context of over how many spins it took to hit. Not how many times it happened but, strictly speaking, it’s true. 

One view is that they should state the odds of this (one in a trillion if a trillion spins). Other people many not like the idea of assigning probability type lottery odds to a slot.

Id be very surprised if they didn’t have the evidence of the 60k hit : it’s so obvious on the slot machine, that it would be pretty easy for the ASA etc to ask ‘show us’. 

I don’t see it as any different to claims of a 96.8% RTP in the help file; have to place reliance on the independence of the testing labs. Whether that’s enough for some people is their choice. 

I can see the problems with such spurious claims and I wouldn’t be surprise if something was introduced in the future to at least caveat it. 

My bigger issue is that, given most games have win caps, whilst I may hit 60kcal on 20p and get it all, should it happen on a fiver: I won’t 

[Afi4wins]

Thanks for your thoughts mate!

Yes, what you say do make some sense, at least, hehehe, but we may never know the whole truth of it all, unless the casino shows that winning screenshot in their paytable - proof that it is possible to get what they claim!

Will the casinos do it? Very unlikely - unless imposed upon them by the Agencies concerned.

State how many billions or trillions of spins needed to get that win? Don't think they would state that either...all the big win hunters would be scared away! Similarly, if stated that such win can only be achieved at max bet sizes...how many punters may die first chasing that elusive big win!

The best solution to me...don't state the elusives...don't make punters be-LIE-ve to...and just stick to the good old ways of getting those Max Wins! 

[pinnit2015]

21 minutes ago, Afi4wins said:

Thanks for your thoughts mate!

Yes, what you say do make some sense, at least, hehehe, but we may never know the whole truth of it all, unless the casino shows that winning screenshot in their paytable - proof that it is possible to get what they claim!

Will the casinos do it? Very unlikely - unless imposed upon them by the Agencies concerned.

State how many billions or trillions of spins needed to get that win? Don't think they would state that either...all the big win hunters would be scared away! Similarly, if stated that such win can only be achieved at max bet sizes...how many punters may die first chasing that elusive big win!

The best solution to me...don't state the elusives...don't make punters be-LIE-ve to...and just stick to the good old ways of getting those Max Wins! 

I know mate - i think this 'win up to' does verge on borderline misleading: if it was buried in the games help file: that's one thing, but the fact that it's plastered all over the front page means that, IMO, it needs greater scrutiny as it is now a marketing/advertising ploy to get people to load up the game....So tell us Mr Software developers: if the win was achieved after 247 running of testing simulations, it maybe came in a billion trillion but you think, that in the lifetime of the game, you expect only 1 billion spins: it makes the 60kx starting to verge on being irrelevant. 

That's the thing with the testing, or the inherent limitations: i think they do it (RTP for example) on a variety of bet sizes so the next question is....on what stake is the 60k x achieved on (other issue here is that bigger bet sizes can possible adversely affect the RTP given the capped winnings.

I personally wouldn't state the max win....let punters play the game and let them decide on how good it is. If you hang your hat on 60kx wins and punters are struggling to hit above 10x, you're gonna alienate them IMO.

Re JF: it was probably 2 retriggers and a board of premium symbols on the last spin

Should maybe just submit a case to the advertising standards agency telling them that, given most bonus wins are 10x in the bonus round, you have doubts as to the veracity of the 60k claims 

[pinnit2015]

On the other point you make - we are at the mercy of placing trust in the independent testing of casino games. Max wins, RTP's etc: it's all very Wizard Behind the Curtain.

The new trend is not saying each spin is random but rather pseudo-random: soon we will move towards what some people are adamant on: they're compensated by virtue of AI.

Personally, i think they're as fair and random as they can be BUT, i'll keep an open mind either way as nothing surprises me when it comes to human greed 

In my previous job we were investigation a guy for fraud and one of the 'defences' was that they earned a ***** of a lot of money, so why would they be on the take for <5% of their salary. Result? Yep - twas him. 

Probably why i was made cynical to an extent 

[Afi4wins]

If we aren't cynical, we aren't ourselves! 

I can be everything an angel can be...yet I can also be everything a devil can be...I can trust someone...or I can trust no one...hahaha. 

[TheAverageGuy]

3 hours ago, pinnit2015 said:

On the other point you make - we are at the mercy of placing trust in the independent testing of casino games. Max wins, RTP's etc: it's all very Wizard Behind the Curtain.

The new trend is not saying each spin is random but rather pseudo-random: soon we will move towards what some people are adamant on: they're compensated by virtue of AI.

Personally, i think they're as fair and random as they can be BUT, i'll keep an open mind either way as nothing surprises me when it comes to human greed 

In my previous job we were investigation a guy for fraud and one of the 'defences' was that they earned a ***** of a lot of money, so why would they be on the take for <5% of their salary. Result? Yep - twas him. 

Probably why i was made cynical to an extent 

it answers itself, because 5% of a crapton of money is an additional crapload of money...

[pinnit2015]

1 hour ago, TheAverageGuy said:

it answers itself, because 5% of a crapton of money is an additional crapload of money...

True: bit like why footballers on 50k a week plus are placing bets on the results of games to earn them a measly 10k.

In the words of the famous rock bank,ABBA, Money, Money, Money.

logically, makes no sense but when have humans been logical. The Vulcans, however...

[cocopop3011]

I'm probably going to sound a bit dumb here but these new paytables are much more confusing than the older generation of games. I've never been someone who studies the paytable anyway as you all very well know, but trying to work out how these big stakes can be won nowadays go way over my head. And if I'm being completely honest I don't even try to work it out.

I check the paytable to see how the bonus/free spins works and that is it until I've won or not won something and  I need to reference it with the paytable? Does it effect me when games say they can pay out 100,000x your stake? No not really because I don't base this info on the games I choose to play anyway.

[TheAverageGuy]

2 hours ago, cocopop3011 said:

I'm probably going to sound a bit dumb here but these new paytables are much more confusing than the older generation of games. I've never been someone who studies the paytable anyway as you all very well know, but trying to work out how these big stakes can be won nowadays go way over my head. And if I'm being completely honest I don't even try to work it out.

I check the paytable to see how the bonus/free spins works and that is it until I've won or not won something and  I need to reference it with the paytable? Does it effect me when games say they can pay out 100,000x your stake? No not really because I don't base this info on the games I choose to Play anyway.

The trouble for me with these massive "potential maximum win(s)" as I see it versus the older ones with much easier to understand paytables is the piece of the RTP that the top 5-10% of potential wins account for (never prominently displayed.. or available to see... or discussed....)  require more and more of it being removed from the potential wins n the remaining 90-95% of payouts... spins... deposit longevity... growing more and more predatory with every additional increase in the "LIFE ALTERING, MIND BOGGLING, PROBLEM SOLVING, SCREENSHOT ENVY CREATING MAXIMUM POSSIBLE WIN*"

 

*the opinions expressed in the previous promotion of the maximum potential win of aforementioned gaming products  is not intended to induce, encourage or make any guarantees of individual experiences while using these products for recreation and entertainment purposes at all. The advertised maximum potential win can potentially occur on any  spin at any time**

 

**When means tested using industry standard mathematical models that require sample sizes of tens of millions to billions of spins to ensure advertised RTP is statistically accurate to within  a 0.0??? percent margin of error.... theoretically...

 

 

[ValDes]

Was reading quite carefully this particular forum topic and kinda surprised no one has suggested  a possible solution yet.  

IMHO, nothing of the aforementioned would ever change unless gaming operators implement and start announcing two instead of a single RTP stat. One is obvious and which we all know as TRTP /Theoretical Return To Player/ aaaand which is responsible for all these annoying, pompous and quite often, truly ridiculous advertisements of possible winning potential.  The other one should be called "Current RTP" and represent the RTP stats achieved in the relevant operator at the current moment. 

Sounds shocking and almost revolutionary, I know, but no better way to guarantee your players the  level of transparency ad fairness we all dream about.  Most viper Mcrogaming casinos have done it before with all these eCOGRA monthly audits and although just a start it was definitely a step in the right direction. Later, BetAt and a few other operators introduced the so called Hot&Cold feature with displaying RTP stats for the relevant games in real time which certainly proves it is possible. 

Now all we need is a gentle push on behalf a serious regulatory body and what do you know, this might change the whole industry.  Just imagine the potential... it's gigantic and totally capable to change the way in which casinos operate, advertise, build their websites, literally everything.

...........Gees! Seems like I fell asleep and started dreaming after getting up so early for GOT S08e02...  

[Afi4wins]

Aaaah...getting off the track for a bit...I wish I can follow GoT series, but I don't even know if it's available in my country...because I hardly watch any TV!!! Hahaha.

All I could do was to watch clips of the series via you-know-where-tube...but never in their right sequences, never in their right seasons, so never in my right mind either...sheeeeesh!  But from what I have watched so far...I do love it! Hehehe.

Now...coming back on track...I do wish the Authorities, or Agencies, or anybody else, could eventually make a positive and workable solution, to prevent and avoid recurrences of such misleading and ridiculous claims! The world is already so full of lies...and I would definitely hate playing on deceitful games! 

[Fiekie247]

On the Max Possible win - My view is that I do believe the win is possible, I do not believe I will live to see it ever happen or to witness someone ever get that x480 000 win on Peking Luck or x48 000 on John Hunter or x5000 on Moon Princess(I personally hit over x1000 on Moon Princess and never saw anyone else achieve this).

 

I think Blue Print latest releases shows true potential even though they not showing the Max Possible win in any of their own slots on startup and we have seen the sky is the limit and I normally find most of their slots Medium to High Variance, as the base game can pay decent most times, to name a few:  Genie Jackpots Megaways, Primal Megaways, Napoleon - These slots have all proven what its made of the and the monstrous hits where I saw a hit of x22500 in primal mega-ways  once, which beats even Push Gaming for their extreme volatility in their slots based on empty base game spins at least.

 

Lets talk about the following:

Pragmatic play - Peking Luck : up to x480 000, John Hunter: Up to x48 000, Extra Juicy : Up to x60 000... - Most I have seen on these slots was x3000 more or less

Play N Go - Always up to x5000, but never seen a win exceed x3000 in a single spin in certain slots ( Moon Princess, Viking RuneCraft, MultiFruit). Lets not talk about how Super Flip has a max win potential of up to 1 000 000 coins... Geezz

Push Gaming never release what the maximum wins are, but I know Jammin Jars has a max win of x20 000 , yet I have seen x15 000.

Vikings from Netent has a maximum win of up to x10 000 on every spin, yet the max on a single spins during free spins I have seen is x2000, I believe you would basically need a full screen of Scatter symbols or something?

Now with that said - The Above mentioned providers who has these crazy possible wins in their slots, produce those specific slots on an Extremely Highly Volatile bases, which means the base games can eat you alive in a matter of minutes.

So I think Blue Print gaming has a good balance within most of  their latest releases which is why I like them lately, not only does the base game win often, the random base game features pay decent as well to keep a steady balance and bonus/free spins pays the best I have seen in the past few months. So with them its all not about the free spins feature if you know what I mean.

 

On another note : I always thought book of dead has a max win of x5000, however they state its maximum 250 000 coins. Now I would think if on Maximum bet it would work out to x5000 right?

So let's say you get 5 explorers on the first 3 or 5 spins, which is x5000, does that mean the rest of the free spins feature would be empty and pay nothing? Which sounds impossible? What about the 3 scatter win which is only x2, but it still exceed x5000? Makes me wonder...

 

I really believe that if someone hits the maximum possible win, it will be at a low bet, but never on Max Bet... Imagine x480 000 on Peking luck with 50 euro bet, thats a day to remember, even beating the Mega Moolah Jackpot.

 

Besides all my big hits that was between x2000 - x10 000 was on a bet between $0.20 - $0.50, if I bet $1, I take forever to trigger bonus feature first of all, and then that ridiculous bonus pay out of under x10 on jammin jars

 

 

[Afi4wins]

That's the thing with all these incredible claims - they always claim, or say, and always believe, that this one miraculous win 'could come at any time, at any day, and without expectation'.

Yes, theoretically, it is indeed a possibility, but not a probability (hope readers can differentiate the difference between 'possibility' and 'probability' - in scientific language, one means 'yes, there is a very remote chance that it may happen', whilst the other means 'no, it probably will not happen within a lifetime').

Coming back to my topic - that is exactly the point that I have been trying to make here...anything can be possible, but if it is something 'not probable' within anyone's span of lifetime, then that statement should state its 'actual probability period' of possibly several life spans...or not be published at all...or simply be banned from being stated...because such statement can be very deceitful!

 

[pinnit2015]

What players are more concerned about is the spread of the wins: personally, i like to play games with a good 250-500x win range: sometimes I'd like to know the stats in this respect: would be more useful to me than some absurd 500000x win in testing. 

As Afi will attest to - sometimes the pay table tells you all you need to know anyhow

Who knows, maybe the UKGC will ask them to link the testing results into the help file: given how boring some new games are I'd probably spend more time putting those results in a pivot table than spinning the reels.

Blueprint, as F says, are really hitting the spot with their releases. 

[pinnit2015]

I was playing some bingo slots the other day, for a change - with a 98.5% RTP it was near enough impossible to lose my balance - don't get me wrong, the games are boring and at one point i was wishing my balance away,  but still managed to get 100 profit to take to Napoleon. 

And as a sidebar.....no need to verify and withdrawal was paid faster than Slotsmillion: if it'd been a Malta casino I'd probably have been asked for SOW for 100 quid. 

[Afi4wins]

It all boils back to one same statement...stick to the casino/s that you tend to win more times than at other casinos! 

Taking into consideration of all the possibilities, probabilities and of the myriad of variances along the way, from the software's server, into the casino's managing system, then into the player's machinery (smart phone, laptop, desktop, etc), the outcome of any game can never be constant! Even the very small variances in the electricity's amperage can cause slightly varying results, like missing out a few incoming data for a split second, causing a very small fluctuation in the algorithms of the game, and even causing a total malfunction if the electricity surge is above the accepted limits.

Heeey, nobody said that any simple thing, like playing a casino game for example, is actually simple and straightforward! The workings of even a very basic and simple thing can be so damn blardy complicated and sophisticated, and that is the real truth of everything in life!