Loss limts enforcement

[lyncho90]

Hi Please see below timeline of events I have had with omnia casino :

 

26/01/2019 - I set up account with this email address and deposited as follows:

Deposit - £500.00 - 4.57pm

Deposit - £500.00 - 5.37pm

Deposit - £890.00 - 6.03pm

 

I played for a number of hours with intermittent breaks and eventually got monies up to £4,500.00. At this point at 12.50am 27/01/19 I withdrew across 3 withdrawals of £2000.00, £2000.00 and £500.00 (Total £4,500) one straight after the other as I could not withdraw all at once.

 

As I'm a compulsive gambler at 12.58am I then set a deposit limit of £200.00 and a loss limit of £200.00 at 12.59am so I could not lose monies and be safe in the security that Omnia were advocates of responsible gambling and looking after player welfare. Apparently the card that I tried to withdraw with rejected these requests and monies were returned to my account, I have no way of verifying that these transactions were rejected but all I would say is that I have used this card before and never had any problems in accepting withdrawals when fully verified. Please note there is no reverse withdrawal function and I didn’t request not wanted the monies to be returned to my account. Also note I was only notified that my withdrawals were not being approved 10.04am despite £2000.00 of the funds being refunded by 5.00am previously.

 

As i have stated previously I am a compulsive gambler. Therefore, as a compulsive gambler does, when funds hit my account again I lost all control and started betting again and proceed to lose all £4,500.00. However as I had set my loss limits it is my view that all I should have been permitted to lose was £200.00 and my account should have been locked. Omnia claim that because deposits where made prior to putting limits on the do not count despite screenshots attached from there responsible gambling policy saying they take effect immediately.

 

I believe i am entitled to a refund of £4,300, i.e £4,500.00 deposited/won prior to loss limit, minus £200.00 loss limit set thereafter.

 

Am I right??

 

[ValDes]

Hello there and welcome to AskGamblers. 

Unfortunately, it appears you have been just one more of the players who failed to read and understand how Net Loss Limit works. 

Omnia Casino definition - "Net loss limits allow you to control the maximum amount of money you can lose over the selected period;"

Basically, Net loss means losing hard cash and has nothing to do with losing your winnings, that's the main issue here and what caused your confusion. Considering the fact that you have set both Deposit Limit and Net Loss Limit for the amount of 200 you would have been allowed to deposit and lose no more than these 200, that's all. 

[pinnit2015]

Was just going to say that it's a net loss limit (which IMO is a waste of time in terms of RG Controls). You deposit 50 with LL of 50, win 5000 - means that you can then proceed to spunk the 5050 back in before takes effect - wagering limits are better in situations like this: win big, either withdraw or immediately set a wager limit (deposit limits would be pointless here).

Other thing is AFAIK, the limits only take effect once activated. Unfortunately cos of the reversal back into your account you hadn't actually lost anything - only have been if you went 4,700 down i  believe - in effect you started the day off 4,500 'up'.

Sucks but that's what it is unfortunately. 

 

[lyncho90]

Ok fair enough but as I had deposited 1890 surely I would be entitled to a refund of 1690. 

Secound like

1 hour ago, pinnit2015 said:

Was just going to say that it's a net loss limit (which IMO is a waste of time in terms of RG Controls). You deposit 50 with LL of 50, win 5000 - means that you can then proceed to spunk the 5050 back in before takes effect - wagering limits are better in situations like this: Win Big, either withdraw or immediately set a wager limit (deposit limits would be pointless here).

Other thing is AFAIK, the limits only take effect once activated. Unfortunately cos of the reversal back into your account you hadn't actually Lost anything - only have been if you went 4,700 down i  believe - in effect you started the day off 4,500 'up'.

Sucks but that's what it is unfortunately. 

 

Ok fair enough but as I had deposited 1890 surely I would be entitled to a refund of 1690?

Secondly I did withdraw the 4500 but due to some excuse about my card the sent funds back not at my request as this is what I feared would happen?

Thanks for reply’s 

[lyncho90]

1 hour ago, pinnit2015 said:

Was just going to say that it's a net loss limit (which IMO is a waste of time in terms of RG Controls). You deposit 50 with LL of 50, win 5000 - means that you can then proceed to spunk the 5050 back in before takes effect - wagering limits are better in situations like this: Win Big, either withdraw or immediately set a wager limit (deposit limits would be pointless here).

Other thing is AFAIK, the limits only take effect once activated. Unfortunately cos of the reversal back into your account you hadn't actually Lost anything - only have been if you went 4,700 down i  believe - in effect you started the day off 4,500 'up'.

Sucks but that's what it is unfortunately. 

 

 

1 hour ago, ValDes said:

Hello there and welcome to AskGamblers. 

Unfortunately, it appears you have been just one more of the players who failed to read and understand how Net Loss Limit works. 

Omnia Casino definition - "Net loss limits allow you to control the maximum amount of money you can lose over the selected period;"

Basically, Net loss means losing hard cash and has nothing to do with losing your winnings, that's the main issue here and what caused your confusion. Considering the fact that you have set both Deposit Limit and Net Loss Limit for the amount of 200 you would have been allowed to deposit and lose no more than these 200, that's all. 

Ok fair enough but as I had deposited 1890 surely I would be entitled to a refund of 1690?

Secondly I did withdraw the 4500 but due to some excuse about my card the sent funds back not at my request as this is what I feared would happen?

 Thanks for reply’s 

[lyncho90]

16 minutes ago, lyncho90 said:

Ok fair enough but as I had deposited 1890 surely I would be entitled to a refund of 1690. 

Secound like

Ok fair enough but as I had deposited 1890 surely I would be entitled to a refund of 1690?

Secondly I did withdraw the 4500 but due to some excuse about my card the sent funds back not at my request as this is what I feared would happen?

Thanks for reply’s 

Sorry to bother you again but would below case not be very similar to mine hence set a precedent to protect player

https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-complaints/guts-casino-loss-limit-option-not-working

[ValDes]

26 minutes ago, lyncho90 said:

 

Ok fair enough but as I had deposited 1890 surely I would be entitled to a refund of 1690?

Secondly I did withdraw the 4500 but due to some excuse about my card the sent funds back not at my request as this is what I feared would happen?

 Thanks for reply’s 

Nope, simply because you've set the limits after making the deposits. 

10 minutes ago, lyncho90 said:

Sorry to bother you again but would below case not be very similar to mine hence set a precedent to protect player

https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-complaints/guts-casino-loss-limit-option-not-working

Although the quoted case might look similar to yours, please keep in mind it's not quite applicable in your situation because Guts admitted a tech error with Deposit Limit feature operating normally with all the website sections, including the Poker one as explained within player's opening complaints message. 

[lyncho90]

2 minutes ago, ValDes said:

Nope, simply because you've set the limits after making the deposits. 

Although the quoted case might look similar to yours, please keep in mind it's not quite applicable in your situation because Guts admitted a tech error with Deposit Limit feature operating normally with all the website sections, including the Poker one as explained within player's opening complaints message. 

So you don’t see any chance of recovering any of my loses?

Thats very disappointing considering I withdrew and a technical error sent funds back to my account, I didnt reverse withdrawal or request funds back. I believe they acted in bad faith and am going to pursue nonetheless 

thanks for replies again 

[ValDes]

Unfortunately, I believe your chances for getting some/any refund are close to 0%. Even if you decide to forward the matter to some regulatory body I'm 100% positive they will rule the case in casino favor since there is no violation in any of the common RG policies and/or procedures I could think of. 

In short, you'd better use the occasion and learn your lesson to read more carefully all the relevant rules and terms more carefully in the future and move on.

[lyncho90]

16 minutes ago, ValDes said:

Unfortunately, I believe your chances for getting some/any refund are close to 0%. Even if you decide to forward the matter to some regulatory body I'm 100% positive they will rule the case in casino favor since there is no violation in any of the common RG policies and/or procedures I could think of. 

In short, you'd better use the occasion and learn your lesson to read more carefully all the relevant rules and terms more carefully in the future and move on.

What if I was self excluded from other sister MT securetrade ltd websites. Surely omnia should not have allowed me to set up  an account and my deposits should be refunded?

[ValDes]

Yes, but that's valid claim ONLY if you have already a self-excluded account within their network at the time you registered and player with Omnia and you used exactly the same details on your registration.  

[lyncho90]

3 minutes ago, ValDes said:

Yes, but that's valid claim ONLY if you have already a self-excluded account within their network at the time you registered and player with Omnia and you used exactly the same details on your registration.  

Well I used the same address, email, name, DOB my payment data my have been different I’m not sure, but that would be  the only difference if any, do I have a strong case?

[ValDes]

Unless we talk about 100% match in your account details I'm afraid you don't have a valid case. 

[lyncho90]

17 minutes ago, ValDes said:

Unless we talk about 100% match in your account details I'm afraid you don't have a valid case. 

Sure that is absolutely ridiculous these casinos are complete predators. Just cause I possibly used a different bank card you telling me I don’t have a valid case? That’s madness

[pinnit2015]

I think the deposit limit kicked in after your deposits as that's when they were set...emphasis on I think.

I'll disagree a tad with Valdes re the SE - name/DOB/address i presume are the key data indicators for casinos to pick up on SE. I would be very surprised if MGA/UKGC thought that it was OK for a casino not to pick up on a SE due to the fact someone used 2 different cards across 2 sites. It's a bit like saying 'Hey, we matched your name/dob/address but as you didn't use the same card we thought it was a different person and our systems never flagged you'. Same for email - things like that change: unless you falsify your DOB in the other site, that can't.  

Side note - Gamstop is extremely flawed regarding identification  but i don't think you used that.

[lyncho90]

56 minutes ago, pinnit2015 said:

I think the deposit limit kicked in after your deposits as that's when they were set...emphasis on I think.

I'll disagree a tad with Valdes re the SE - name/DOB/address i presume are the key data indicators for casinos to pick up on SE. I would be very surprised if MGA/UKGC thought that it was OK for a casino not to pick up on a SE due to the fact someone used 2 different cards across 2 sites. It's a bit like saying 'Hey, we matched your name/dob/address but as you didn't use the same card we thought it was a different person and our systems never flagged you'. Same for email - things like that change: unless you falsify your DOB in the other site, that can't.  

Side note - Gamstop is extremely flawed regarding identification  but i don't think you used that.

Thanks Im probably wrong but I am surprised that my loss limit doesn’t cover for deposits made before I put the limit on is crazy in my view, especially as it literally states it comes into effect immediately as per attached. It does not protect the players at all and are complete in favour of the casinos. Especially considering I tried to withdraw and they sent monies back to me I didn’t reverse withdrawal or request return of monies.

On SE it would literally on be different cards on the accounts email etc would be the same.

casinos really are vultures looking out for people to prey on while trying to preach their commitment to responsible gambling.

[pinnit2015]

46 minutes ago, lyncho90 said:

Thanks Im probably wrong but I am surprised that my loss limit doesn’t cover for deposits made before I put the limit on is crazy in my View, especially as it literally states it comes into effect immediately as per attached. It does not protect the players at all and are complete in favour of the casinos. Especially considering I tried to withdraw and they sent monies back to me I didn’t reverse withdrawal or request return of monies.

On SE it would literally on be different cards on the accounts email etc would be the same.

casinos really are vultures looking out for people to prey on while trying to preach their commitment to responsible gambling.

I could be wrong - the immediate bit reads as you can change the limits (up or down) at any time and then subject to the 24 hour cooling period....so, not retrospective as to include deposits made before the request.  Must admit to say 'immediately' and then in the next sentence say '24hour cool down period', kinda means it's not immediate

Personally I've never seen a casino apply a loss limit to include depo's made before the request. 

[lyncho90]

19 minutes ago, pinnit2015 said:

I could be wrong - the immediate bit reads as you can change the limits (up or down) at any time and then subject to the 24 hour cooling period....so, not retrospective as to include deposits made before the request.  Must admit to say 'immediately' and then in the next sentence say '24hour cool down period', kinda means it's not immediate

Personally I've never seen a casino apply a loss limit to include depo's made before the request. 

If I had deposit or loss limits in other companies run by the parent company should they apply across the board?

[pinnit2015]

6 hours ago, lyncho90 said:

If I had deposit or loss limits in other companies run by the parent company should they apply across the board?

You’d need to check the ts and cs but generally no; they’re specific to that casino. 

[ValDes]

16 hours ago, pinnit2015 said:

I think the deposit limit kicked in after your deposits as that's when they were set...emphasis on I think.

I'll disagree a tad with Valdes re the SE - name/DOB/address i presume are the key data indicators for casinos to pick up on SE. I would be very surprised if MGA/UKGC thought that it was OK for a casino not to pick up on a SE due to the fact someone used 2 different cards across 2 sites. It's a bit like saying 'Hey, we matched your name/dob/address but as you didn't use the same card we thought it was a different person and our systems never flagged you'. Same for email - things like that change: unless you falsify your DOB in the other site, that can't.  

Side note - Gamstop is extremely flawed regarding identification  but i don't think you used that.

Ideally, IF there is 100% match in Names/DOB/Address/Email for the registered accounts within the casino group that would be a legitimate reason for any player to request and receive deposit refunds and any regulator would confirm that. The reality however is quite different and it turns out that players are often using different details to circumvent various system SE pre-checks for the obvious reasons. Not saying @lyncho90 case is the same but our AGCCS practice shows ZERO complainants who provided valid proofs for the opposite.  

[pinnit2015]

I think we can all agree that the SE/RG is a bit of a mess at the moment. Both players and casinos need to get it together.

Be in players who are trying to free roll off the casino in the hope that they miss something and process the withdrawal and casinos in actually implementing decent SE controls. The latter, whilst obviously powerless against folk who falsify data, would really combat the former, leaving only those who have intentionally tried to circumvent for their own personal gain - and they can lose their money that way for all i care. 

I've no doubt that there are professional syndicates targeting casinos in this manner. 

People move house for example so your address may not be the same but there should be some name-DOB flag that happens in order to look at it.

To be fair, it's getting a bit better. More SE is being picked up at registration. I remember the days of Every Matrix and their blase approach to it. Now, with the fines being dished up, casinos are more atuned to it.

Said before - personal responsibility is all but gone in this world. When i was a kid i smashed by front teeth being tripping over a kerb. Now? The parents are on the phone to the local council asking for when the kerb (despite me being a plonker on my bike) was last inspected. If there are potholes in the roads people are nearly queuing up to fall down them to claim - it's just where we are now. 

 

[lyncho90]

On 1/29/2019 at 3:53 PM, pinnit2015 said:

I think we can all agree that the SE/RG is a bit of a mess at the moment. Both players and casinos need to get it together.

Be in players who are trying to free roll off the casino in the hope that they miss something and process the withdrawal and casinos in actually implementing decent SE controls. The latter, whilst obviously powerless against folk who falsify data, would really combat the former, leaving only those who have intentionally tried to circumvent for their own personal gain - and they can lose their money that way for all i care. 

I've no doubt that there are professional syndicates targeting casinos in this manner. 

People move house for example so your address may not be the same but there should be some name-DOB flag that happens in order to look at it.

To be fair, it's getting a bit better. More SE is being picked up at registration. I remember the days of Every Matrix and their blase approach to it. Now, with the fines being dished up, casinos are more atuned to it.

Said before - personal responsibility is all but gone in this world. When i was a kid i smashed by front teeth being tripping over a kerb. Now? The parents are on the phone to the local council asking for when the kerb (despite me being a plonker on my bike) was last inspected. If there are potholes in the roads people are nearly queuing up to fall down them to claim - it's just where we are now. 

 

I have been back and forth with omnia arguing my case. As it turns out their payment provider was unable to process the payment as apparently they don’t process to pre-paid MasterCard (revolut card) this despite the fact that they took my deposit from my pre-paid MasterCard. To me this is Omnias and their payment processors problem, not mine. I tried to withdraw and their payment processor did not complete the same, am I right or is there any precedence for this?

[TheAverageGuy]

On 1/29/2019 at 10:53 AM, pinnit2015 said:

Be it players who are trying to free roll off the casino in the hope that they miss something and process the withdrawal and casinos in actually implementing decent SE controls. The latter, whilst obviously powerless against folk who falsify data, would really combat the former, leaving only those who have intentionally tried to circumvent for their own personal gain - and they can lose their money that way for all i care. 

Said before - personal responsibility is all but gone in this world. When i was a kid i smashed by front teeth being tripping over a kerb. Now? The parents are on the phone to the local council asking for when the kerb (despite me being a plonker on my bike) was last inspected. If there are potholes in the roads people are nearly queuing up to fall down them to claim - it's just where we are now. 

 

This is what happens when we assign undeserved merit for mere participation. We declare that there are no losers, yet everyone knows the score.

If everyone wins and is entitled to a trophy regardless of effort or success then there is no need for individual accountability or personal growth.

If one is never accountable for failures and losses and always entitled to the rewards of success then the only reasonable explanation when they participate and the expected trophy isn't forthcoming is that someone or something else stole or impeded their deserved rewards.

This becomes all the more ridiculous when society on whole starts insisting that the onus of preventing personal failures or high risk behavior falls on anyone except the individual responsible. 

We have all kinds of fault or blame to assign, yet no one willing to accept it.

Casinos will happily prey on the failure of others to keep their impulses and negative behaviors in check as long as it benefits their bottom line and they can claim ignorance or avoid accountability.

Individuals with poor impulse control and self destructive tendencies will continue to indulge their base nature as long as they can self justify and assign fault to anywhere but themselves.

Both sides are equally comfortable accepting rewards that their negative actions created and/or rejecting accountability for any harm generated in the process.

Common sense needs  a resurgence.. and quick... 

If you're at bat, swing and miss not only did you fail to hit the damn ball but you cannot cry foul because you were put at risk by the person who threw the ball.

Stop blaming everything and everyone for failing to save you from your own negative actions.

Stop demanding more concern & respect for your well being than you're capable of/willing to give yourself.

If you want to point fingers and assign blame, do it in front of a mirror.

Fix yourself, then demand more from the world..

oh.. and teach your kids the same..

/end rant

 

 

[lyncho90]

 ***** up ya ball bag 

[TheAverageGuy]

14 minutes ago, lyncho90 said:

 ***** up ya ball bag 

Eloquently stated and obviously very well thought out, I'll certainly take some time to reflect upon your point of view. Thanks for sharing.

Speaking of common sense.. looks like UKGC takes another step in the right direction to cut back on some of the more common issues around KYC and Payments