How slots work

[luckyloser]

So i found this 100+ pages long thread in a swedish forum where they question the randomness of slots. In this particular thread NetEnt slots.

 

After allot of discussion back and forth a new member makes a post claiming to have worked as a slot programmer. He even made some claims about physical slots in sweden and the swedish lottery comission and such. I have scissored out the part about how he claims slots work, and to be true it kinda makes sence to me.

 

I google translated it so english is so and so:

 

More technically about slots:

 

For simplicity, i write "virtual reels," or "virtual wheel".

 

ALL slots have so-called virtual wheels, though it is of course just numbers and not wheels. But to paint a picture of how one or more spins work, so we call it the virtual wheel.

 

Virtual wheel consists of a few hundred to several thousand or more, "trade" or "spots". Each virtual wheel MUST (according to the Control Board) contain one of each EXISTING ICON (also called "game elements"). These "original" symbols must never be removed before any spin.

 

It is allowed for slots programmers to change all other positions (change the game symbols RNG'n can pick) on the virtual reels, between each spin if desired. So this is how to determine when you can win anything. Among all these, its CHANCE who chooses (RNG).

 

Unfortunately, the above is a smokescreen, because what you gain in money, is still controlled by the symbols that are placed or removed from the virtual reels, and it is no coincidence, but time-driven.

 

It is also illegal under the rules of the "Control Board" to hard-coding, ie, program the "near miss" results, that is, where you see that you "almost" could win a bonus round, or a large profit, etc. This, my friends, they solve through the free placement of gaming symbols on the virtual reels.

 

Now I exaggerate the example below, just to show how it may look ...

 

VR = Virtual wheels

BR = Bonus Round

 

Position 2 WR 1 WR WR WR 3 4 5 VR

7 BR BR cherry orange BR

8 BR BR BR cherry cherry

9 BR BR BR cherry cherry

10 BR BR BR cherry orange

etc ....

 

Now that the random number generator randomizing the position of each virtual wheel above, there is no combination that can create a bonus round. However, it will be created "near miss" results.

Of course, in the example, so it requires three consecutive "FF" to get a bonus round, this slot!

 

 

To simply explain, as simple as that can:

 

1) Before you hit the spin button placed game symbols on the virtual reels. Selection of games symbols is done using time (time management). Time steering choice of game symbols, location, number, in turn determined by what will go to win the money, simply put.

 

2) When you press the SPIN selects random number generator which of the existing symbols that will constitute the outcome of the game round.

 

 

Timing and time, it is important to remember when playing on SLOTS !!!

 

So im going to just sum it up here in better english.

 

What he says is the lisence says that all symbols in the game must be on the virtual reel strip. But the games cycles on a timer trough the outcomes that the RNG can pick. Even do all symbols are there it can go trough a cycle where they basicly remove some symbols from the possible RNG picks. 

 

And he also says that its illigal to program near misses, but they solve this by the changing of symbols. 

 

DOA example: SC= Scatter

 

Ree strippl 1 Ree strippl 2 Reel stripp 3 Reel stripp 4 Reel stripp 5

K                   Hat                   K                         K                 K

SC                 SC                   K                         K                 K

SC                 SC                   K                         K                 K

SC                 SC                   K                         K                 K

 

As you can see if this is the symbols the RNG can pick its impossible to get 3 scatters because the RNG doessent have the third scatter to pick. But you would get allot of "near misses". So the game might go 15 minutes or half an hour with "bad" reel strips then maybe go a short periode with "good" reel strips.

 

If his claim is real then basicly when a slot goes cold there is no point in playing it. Simply wait until it heats up again.

 

And also if this was somehow proven or it came out that slots really work this way i think i would never play again because even tough its "random" because you dont know how it cycles or when. But still its not truly random and in my opinion unfair.

[Afi4wins]

EXCELLENT article here Luckyloser!

 

To most readers, all these may sound jumblish...making no sense at all...

but for those who knows a bit about computer programming, it makes sense!

 

Whether everything said in the article are true or not, no one can be certain...

but that guy certainly have no ulterior motive in telling lies...

and I personally believe in those statements above.

 

Like I said before too...the RNG works together with the RTP to produce results.

NOTHING is 100% random...it is a controlled or programmed randomness...a selective randomness if you like.

So...when it's time to pay, its pays.

When it's time to eat, it eats!

 

Haven't you been playing looooong enough to realise this???

[Afi4wins]

Before I forget...

 

This article also reminds me about what I said about getting those 5 Wild Desire reels and also those 5 Harps...

And the above article further strengthens my believe that getting those 5 Wild Desires and 5 Harps are TIME CONTROLLED!

 

I will know for certain if I'm wrong or right when the next 5 Wild Desires or 5 Harps is won somewhere...

and I still do not think this will happen any sooner than 5 years from now.

[luckyloser]

Yes and the big question is if this is true, how is it time controlled? Is it a certain periode? Is it a certain amount wagered totally trough the game?, Is it a certain number of spins?

 

Even casinos themselves have given me some strange answers after i have questioned my RTP after som extremly bad sessions with RTP under 50%. One casino told me that the game works on picking probabilities. And that after winning big the probability of another big win is very low. He might be talking about randomness or is he?

 

Just to clarify though the person who made the post in a swedish forum didd not program online slots. But physical slots. But he said he is pretty sure they all work the same. Because this was how RNG slots in vegas also worked.

 

He also said there is no system to win on slots. But there is things you could do to increase your odds of winning. But he didd not go into details about that. Probably has something to do with the cycles. Lower to minimum stake when its "cold" or even stopp playing for a periode of time.

 

But i really wish there was more transparancy about these games. Casinos just says its a RNG and all, but clearly there is more to it.

[Afi4wins]

Well...it would depend on each individual slot game I guess.

 

If I'm the owner of the game, I'd tell my game designers this:

 

"I don't want any player to win big everyday..."

"I don't want the big wins to come out often..."

"I don't want the MAXIMUM WIN to come out more than ONCE IN 10 YEARS..."

"BUT...I want the MAXIMUM WIN to come out early so that all those suckers will go chasing after it!!!"

"And THAT'S HOW we can make money!!!"

 

So...whether controlled by number of spins, amount wagered, or period of time...no one knows...except the game designers!

[luckyloser]

Well...it would depend on each individual slot game I guess.

 

If I'm the owner of the game, I'd tell my game designers this:

 

"I don't want any player to win big everyday..."

"I don't want the big wins to come out often..."

"I don't want the MAXIMUM WIN to come out more than ONCE IN 10 YEARS..."

"BUT...I want the MAXIMUM WIN to come out early so that all those suckers will go chasing after it!!!"

"And THAT'S HOW we can make money!!!"

 

So...whether controlled by number of spins, amount wagered, or period of time...no one knows...except the game designers!

 

Yes, makes me wonder about Dead or alive. Suddenly it was very hot. I hit multiple wildlines in 2 weeks time and some person strarted posting videos of wildline on 3.6,7,2,9 and two times on 18 bet. And then after that the game went completley cold for several months. Makes me wonder...

[stars_cream]

 

Like I said before too...the RNG works together with the RTP to produce results.

NOTHING is 100% random...it is a controlled or programmed randomness...a selective randomness if you like.

So...when it's time to pay, its pays.

When it's time to eat, it eats!

 

 

 

I agree with you Afi.

It is true it cant be 100% random since it is impossible for the programmers to simulate and produce a RNG which gives 100% random results. They may reach 99,99999 % but never 100%. In addition there is the 92-96% RTP of most online slots which affects this randomness.

 

It is not like poker software RNG where in the long run the results of the RNG wont affect your bankroll and you can be a winner player depending on your skills.

Sadly dealing with slots in the long run you are trapped in the RTP and doomed to lose your money, unless you hit the JACKPOT 

 

Also you miss the variation factor of the games based in luck which can be huge in slots and give you many upswings and downswings ( hot and cold periods ). The negative variation and downswings in online poker can last from a month to 8 months and a year, so i cant imagine how disastrous it can be in online slots (i dont think anyone  has ever measured it for slots) since you can only rely in randomness and luck.

 

Thats why every year i have a couple of months where i can win lots from slots but then for  many months i cant make  a single good withdraw   . Yes variation is a ***** 

 So maybe with variation you can explain the time controlled factor that you look for. When the positive variation hits its peak you can win huge , and when you are at the bottom of the negative variation u can lose many deposits 

 

Anyway i prefer Afis theory rather than all the above maths problems

 

So...when it's time to pay, its pays.

When it's time to eat, it eats! 

[Afi4wins]

I agree with you Afi.

It is true it cant be 100% random since it is impossible for the programmers to simulate and produce a RNG which gives 100% random results. They may reach 99,99999 % but never 100%. In addition there is the 92-96% RTP of most online slots which affects this randomness.

 

It is not like poker software RNG where in the long run the results of the RNG wont affect your bankroll and you can be a winner player depending on your skills.

Sadly dealing with slots in the long run you are trapped in the RTP and doomed to lose your money, unless you hit the JACKPOT 

 

Also you miss the variation factor of the games based in luck which can be huge in slots and give you many upswings and downswings ( hot and cold periods ). The negative variation and downswings in online poker can last from a month to 8 months and a year, so i cant imagine how disastrous it can be in online slots (i dont think anyone  has ever measured it for slots) since you can only rely in randomness and luck.

 

Thats why every year i have a couple of months where i can win lots from slots but then for  many months i cant make  a single good withdraw   . Yes variation is a ***** 

 So maybe with variation you can explain the time controlled factor that you look for. When the positive variation hits its peak you can win huge , and when you are at the bottom of the negative variation u can lose many deposits 

 

Anyway i prefer Afis theory rather than all the above maths problems

 

So...when it's time to pay, its pays.

When it's time to eat, it eats! 

 

Hehehe...we can never finish discussing on all the probabilities of 'chance'!

Too many things to be considered...variable things...plus individual luck too...so nothing can be that accurate.

 

Yes, I've put it in the simplest phrase that everyone can understand...

believe in it or not, that's another story...

but I've been playing slots for more than 30 years now...mechanical machines, stand alone slots and now online slots...

so I do understand a lot of things about them.

 

And the fact remains...when it's time to pay, it pays!

[AnnaCasinoOfficial]

Hi everyone,

 

In the Anna Casino post in the "Casinos General" forum (found here) luckyloser asked about the mechanics of online video slots. Since this discussion is already ongoing here I felt it would be appropriate to answer with this post.

 

In general I can't say for sure how the online video slots are programmed since it is an area partially clouded in company secrets within the big software developers. However, I can offer you my observations (and attempts at logic). Please remember that I am writing this as an avid fan of casino games like the rest of you and that I have no special knowledge that I can sprinkle upon this debate, unfortunately. 

 

In general I read the posts above as a general theory that slots are time based and that although true randomness does occur it is coupled with a timer to switch between hot/cold periods. I hope that I got this right since the OP is a little confusing with the google translate part of it

 

I generally have a hard time biting on the idea that slots should have hot and cold periods on purpose. As a gambler myself I completely understand where people are coming from when stating this since at time it really feels like this is the case. But I do believe that this feeling is mostly caused by our brains natural desire to find structure in randomness. When "boring" sessions occur where the account jumps up and down a lot and ends up with a loss a player would tend to lean towards the machine being cold when in fact it might actually have been pretty close to the theoretical equilibrium. In order to win an amount large enough to warrant a cashout a series of wins or one big win is often required leaving players with the feeling of the machine being hot when these periods occur. Obviously the machine IS hot when these occur but it doesn't mean that it is anything else than a natural variance that landed in the players favor during this period.

 

If you were to ask players to estimate, without tracking software support, if a machine was hot, cold or neutral (neutral being within maybe 5-10% fluctuation around equilibrium) during prolonged sessions I think you would see stats that were quite far from reality. The human brain is designed to find structure and cause and does not at all like randomness in general and I have in the past seen experiments in the poker world of this nature where the results spoke a clear language. Unless we have a tracking device in front of us telling us how it goes we are amazingly good at coming up with a way to structure random information and this structure is more often than not, far from reality. 

 

This is the "soft version" of why I doubt the first theory put forward. The primary reasons for my doubt is:

 

There is somewhat of a motive missing. I understand the concept that they by doing this can create more illusions of being "close" to a big hit but this alone does not make it necessary to have the machine turn cold and hot at certain times. Even if the machines were constructed like the reals in the above examples you could easily have the machine switch between cold and hot as often as every 10 seconds. There is no point for them in really extending these cold/hot periods to last a over longer period of time. To elaborate, what would be the reasoning behind leaving a machine cold for 100 minutes and give 10 hot minutes as opposed to leaving the machine cold for 10 minutes and give 1 hot minute? Or even just allow that minute to be selected at random at 10% chance like the rest of the set up. Orrrrrrrrrrr (as I believe it to be the case) to simply allow these winning spins to be a regular part of the possible returns at the rate required to fulfill the theoretical payback over time? The truth is that cold periods is what turns gamblers off the most and if they wanted to, I would lean towards thinking that software developers would actually build the machines to avoid this rather than the other way around. If any of you guys have a good motive for building them like this I would be interested if you would give it up.

 

But this debate has sparked my curiosity and I will try to dig a little to see if I can come up with more information.

 

However, bottom line, I lean heavily towards the boring "all is random" theory.

 

Kind regards,

Mike

[luckyloser]

It was kinda hard for me to translate the (google translate part) myself also. Since im Norwegian myself i do understand swedish to an extent, but some words and sayings are allitle confusing. But i think we all got the point the poster was trying to make.

 

Well, lets say the games are auditied on a monthley basis and they have to payout their expected return to player each month across all casinos combined. Then its really easy to understand why there might be some underlying algorythem that controlls the payouts. Lets say one month the games have paid very poor RTP of 70% and the game should pay 96% then the system might adjust it so that by the end of the month it has paid 96%.

 

My concern is as follows: If it was truly random and all game outcomes and reel stopps are just the result of a computer picking 5 random stopp positions according to a reelstrip. Then theoireticly a new casino could experience heavy losses the first day of opening.

 

Lets say 100 people deposit 100 euros each and they all play Dead or alive. Lets say the average player bets between 0.09 and 0.90 euros pr spin. Fore convienice sake lets say 90 out of 100 players in this case bets in this range. Some win some lose.

 

Then the last ten players play the max bet 18 euros. Even tough its unlikley( i dont know the odds of getting a 1000x or above win on this game but i estimate 1 in 150 000) what if all those 10 players hit a monster win.. We all know this game could pay over 40 000x if you hit the perfect bonus round. I myself have gotten a 10 000x stake win so i know this is possible.

Then mulitply that by 18 euros then across ten players... The casino would be banckrupt the first day. This is why i dont think its 100% random, but controlled in some way... Sure it might be random who wins and who loses but not random in the true sence.

 

Also why have i never seen screenshots of any of the maxwins possible on netent games? Only one i think i have seen is a full screen of wilds on Jack and the beanstalk. I have never seen a full screen of wilds on dead or alive, or never the max win on wonkey wabbits,Wild turkey,thunderfist and so on.. Ok the odds might be against it but every month someone hits the eurojackpot and the odds is 1/75 million and i doubt the odds of hitting a full screen of wilds is higher than this.

 

This is why i think there is some buildt in mechanic to protect the casinos/software provider from ever losing. Im not saying casinos rigg the games. As you said above, the software providers keep game mechanics a company secret. But remember the more people lose the more the software providers make.

 

By me saying this i just want to make it clear that im not saying its rigged so you cannot win. But im saying that its other mechanics at play than it seams. And i really think people have the right to know what they are gambling on. But that might be a problem for the software providers. If people knew the whole concept and mechanics of a slot they could possible take this knowlegde and gain an advantage.

[Afi4wins]

Exactly Luckyloser!

 

The question of how NOT to bankcrupt a new casino running such a high variance game like DOA.

Makes you think and wonder doesn't it?

 

I still believe that new casinos are somehow blanketed from such bankcrupting scenarios by a 'weighting' sytem of some sort. New casinos that have accumulated less wagers may have an 'insurance cover' that prevents maximum wins from occuring too soon...or occuring only at low bets (the maximum payout amount being related to the total accumulated wagers so far).

 

This theory is not picked up from the clouds...it was a system used by the earlier generations of 'stand alone' slot games softwares. Each software came complete with capabilities to change and amend the games configurations and payouts settings!!! I know this for a fact because of my close relationship with some mini arcade operators and their maintenance technicians!

 

I have even seen myself how they had changed the payout setting from say 60:40 (Operator:Player) to lower or higher settings...as the need arose! Hence, a player who had lost a huge amount of money gets compensated by the mini arcade operator by winning back a certain predetermined amount, but only by playing on a SPECIFIC machine on a SPECIFIC day! Needless to say, I myself got this special treatment from them quite a number of times! This humanitarian system keeps the customers happy!!!

 

Having said that...why should new online slot games softwares deviate from the proven past system? They certainly have made it far more advanced and superior now...but some things do not change! I can't prove this of course...just my CONSPIRACY THEORY!!!

[luckyloser]

Exactly Luckyloser!

 

The question of how NOT to bankcrupt a new casino running such a high variance game like DOA.

Makes you think and wonder doesn't it?

 

I still believe that new casinos are somehow blanketed from such bankcrupting scenarios by a 'weighting' sytem of some sort. New casinos that have accumulated less wagers may have an 'insurance cover' that prevents maximum wins from occuring too soon...or occuring only at low bets (the maximum payout amount being related to the total accumulated wagers so far).

 

This theory is not picked up from the clouds...it was a system used by the earlier generations of 'stand alone' slot games softwares. Each software came complete with capabilities to change and amend the games configurations and payouts settings!!! I know this for a fact because of my close relationship with some mini arcade operators and their maintenance technicians!

 

I have even seen myself how they had changed the payout setting from say 60:40 (Operator:Player) to lower or higher settings...as the need arose! Hence, a player who had lost a huge amount of money gets compensated by the mini arcade operator by winning back a certain predetermined amount, but only by playing on a SPECIFIC machine on a SPECIFIC day! Needless to say, I myself got this special treatment from them quite a number of times! This humanitarian system keeps the customers happy!!!

 

Having said that...why should new online slot games softwares deviate from the proven past system? They certainly have made it far more advanced and superior now...but some things do not change! I can't prove this of course...just my CONSPIRACY THEORY!!!

 

I agree. The person who posted on the swedish forum also made a new post where he said exactley the same thing. Money in vs money out. The game cannot pay out if it has not gotten enough money in. Money in is paid out in increments and some is spared for the "jackpot" or in dead or alive "the wildline" or 5 scatters. 

 

Some people will argue this is how an AWP machine works and not a random slot. But im pretty sure its all the same. Fore example "classic" slots such as Jackpot 6000, Mega joker and super nudge 6000 is AWP slots. Basicly feed the slot enough and it will pay always. But you might lose more than you get, or you can hit a streak or "jackpot" of multiple jackpot wins. Thats why casinos dont allow bonus play on these or the wagering is 0 or very low.

 

But im pretty sure the so called RNG slots also have a simular setup maybe just allitle more complicated. Because as you said it has to have some kind of protection mechanisme buildt in. Or else casinos can take heavy losses in the first couple of days/week starting a casino.

 

Then the question is, does bet size matter? Surley the game will then differentiate from a bet of 0.09 euros or a bet of 0.90.. Hitting the money shoot here will be hundreds of euros vs thousands. My theory is simply the game will pay the amount it wants regardless of the betsize. 

 

If the game decides to pay you 10 000 euros and you bet low it will give you an amazing streak and if you bet big you will win one big win. I have seen this happen to myself countless times.. Betting 0.90 winning a few thousand then before i cash out i decide to play my balance down to the nearest 500 on higher stakes and boom hit an amazing win as soon as i raise the stakes.

[AnnaCasinoOfficial]

Well, lets say the games are auditied on a monthley basis and they have to payout their expected return to player each month across all casinos combined. Then its really easy to understand why there might be some underlying algorythem that controlls the payouts. Lets say one month the games have paid very poor RTP of 70% and the game should pay 96% then the system might adjust it so that by the end of the month it has paid 96%.

 

My concern is as follows: If it was truly random and all game outcomes and reel stopps are just the result of a computer picking 5 random stopp positions according to a reelstrip. Then theoireticly a new casino could experience heavy losses the first day of opening.

 

Lets say 100 people deposit 100 euros each and they all play Dead or alive. Lets say the average player bets between 0.09 and 0.90 euros pr spin. Fore convienice sake lets say 90 out of 100 players in this case bets in this range. Some win some lose.

 

Then the last ten players play the max bet 18 euros. Even tough its unlikley( i dont know the odds of getting a 1000x or above win on this game but i estimate 1 in 150 000) what if all those 10 players hit a monster win.. We all know this game could pay over 40 000x if you hit the perfect bonus round. I myself have gotten a 10 000x stake win so i know this is possible.

Then mulitply that by 18 euros then across ten players... The casino would be banckrupt the first day. This is why i dont think its 100% random, but controlled in some way... Sure it might be random who wins and who loses but not random in the true sence.

 

Also why have i never seen screenshots of any of the maxwins possible on netent games? Only one i think i have seen is a full screen of wilds on Jack and the beanstalk. I have never seen a full screen of wilds on dead or alive, or never the max win on wonkey wabbits,Wild turkey,thunderfist and so on.. Ok the odds might be against it but every month someone hits the eurojackpot and the odds is 1/75 million and i doubt the odds of hitting a full screen of wilds is higher than this.

 

This is why i think there is some buildt in mechanic to protect the casinos/software provider from ever losing. Im not saying casinos rigg the games. As you said above, the software providers keep game mechanics a company secret. But remember the more people lose the more the software providers make.

 

By me saying this i just want to make it clear that im not saying its rigged so you cannot win. But im saying that its other mechanics at play than it seams. And i really think people have the right to know what they are gambling on. But that might be a problem for the software providers. If people knew the whole concept and mechanics of a slot they could possible take this knowlegde and gain an advantage.

 

The games do not have to pay out the theoretical payback percentage on a monthly basis. The truth is that with such an amazingly high amount of activity on for instance NET ENT slots the overall payback on a monthly basis probably never fluctuate with more than 0.25% or something like that. Even at true randomness. So they kinda do payout the theoretical payback percentage anyway but there is no rule, that the machine has to pay out the exact percentage. How much they pay out is audited by the licencor who gets the monthly payback information. If there is a high divergence from the theoretical payback percentage they might investigate and audit the games to ensure that it is just "a fluke" but there is no rule stating, that the theoretical payback percentage have to be precise every month. Not even on a yearly basis this percentage have to be correct (although it probably will or be within a very very small margin of fluctuation).

 

The reason why you have never seen a screenshot of a max win is probably that these are EXTREMELY rare. It is nice to promote a potential 500.000 coin win or something like that but the likelyhood of actually hitting this might be on the same level as hitting the Mega Jackpot at Mega Fortune. Only very rarely does it happen and since 99% of all casino players are not posting on forums the likelihood of a forum member taking a screenshot of this and posting it is very small. However, I have once heard a colleague talk about this happening at his casino. He thought it was a jackpot so he got super excited but it wasn't - it was a max win. He didn't mention the game though.

 

The thing about protecting new casinos is not really something that exist either. I know of several casinos that had to go ask investors for funding after only 1-2 months in operation because they had players hitting big wins left and right straight off the bat. All new smaller casinos have a straight up fear of a €50-200 per spin highroller hitting a massive win like you talk about here right after they open. And it does happen to some. But just as you players accept the fact that there are days with wins and days with loses, the casinos have to take the flipside of that coin as well and they are not protected from it.

 

The last thing you wrote is also an important point. There are literally 100's of players every day that monitor casino spins online with tracking softwares, trying to find a pattern that can be abused. Some games have up to 99% payback ratio so it doesn't require much to switch the advantage to the player side. The problem is, that they might observe 100-500K spins with their software and the software might detect a small pattern due to the variance that exist even at that amount of spins. They decide to put their new knowledge into use but they often end up with nothing but empty pockets and a good story because that pattern they saw the first time around didn't duplicate since it was simply a small variance that caused it.

 

 

Exactly Luckyloser!

 

The question of how NOT to bankcrupt a new casino running such a high variance game like DOA.

Makes you think and wonder doesn't it?

 

I still believe that new casinos are somehow blanketed from such bankcrupting scenarios by a 'weighting' sytem of some sort. New casinos that have accumulated less wagers may have an 'insurance cover' that prevents maximum wins from occuring too soon...or occuring only at low bets (the maximum payout amount being related to the total accumulated wagers so far).

 

This theory is not picked up from the clouds...it was a system used by the earlier generations of 'stand alone' slot games softwares. Each software came complete with capabilities to change and amend the games configurations and payouts settings!!! I know this for a fact because of my close relationship with some mini arcade operators and their maintenance technicians!

 

I have even seen myself how they had changed the payout setting from say 60:40 (Operator:Player) to lower or higher settings...as the need arose! Hence, a player who had lost a huge amount of money gets compensated by the mini arcade operator by winning back a certain predetermined amount, but only by playing on a SPECIFIC machine on a SPECIFIC day! Needless to say, I myself got this special treatment from them quite a number of times! This humanitarian system keeps the customers happy!!!

 

Having said that...why should new online slot games softwares deviate from the proven past system? They certainly have made it far more advanced and superior now...but some things do not change! I can't prove this of course...just my CONSPIRACY THEORY!!!

 

As mentioned, plenty of new casinos go bankrupt. Almost on a monthly basis (well, usually they are bought up by competitors, manages to get extra funding or is taken over by a network so you might not notice it). Definitely not uncommon at all.

 

Related to the conspiracy theory in the bottom part of your post, this might have been something you could get away with back in the wild west days. I have not heard of it but I wouldn't be surprised if it could have happened. Today though, online gaming is regulated almost as banks if they are licensed in a reputable jurisdiction (which all serious companies are). The licensing bodies do a number of tests, sweeps or even raids to ensure that no such thing as you explained exist.

 

I agree. The person who posted on the swedish forum also made a new post where he said exactley the same thing. Money in vs money out. The game cannot pay out if it has not gotten enough money in. Money in is paid out in increments and some is spared for the "jackpot" or in dead or alive "the wildline" or 5 scatters. 

 

Some people will argue this is how an AWP machine works and not a random slot. But im pretty sure its all the same. Fore example "classic" slots such as Jackpot 6000, Mega joker and super nudge 6000 is AWP slots. Basicly feed the slot enough and it will pay always. But you might lose more than you get, or you can hit a streak or "jackpot" of multiple jackpot wins. Thats why casinos dont allow bonus play on these or the wagering is 0 or very low.

 

But im pretty sure the so called RNG slots also have a simular setup maybe just allitle more complicated. Because as you said it has to have some kind of protection mechanisme buildt in. Or else casinos can take heavy losses in the first couple of days/week starting a casino.

 

Then the question is, does bet size matter? Surley the game will then differentiate from a bet of 0.09 euros or a bet of 0.90.. Hitting the money shoot here will be hundreds of euros vs thousands. My theory is simply the game will pay the amount it wants regardless of the betsize. 

 

If the game decides to pay you 10 000 euros and you bet low it will give you an amazing streak and if you bet big you will win one big win. I have seen this happen to myself countless times.. Betting 0.90 winning a few thousand then before i cash out i decide to play my balance down to the nearest 500 on higher stakes and boom hit an amazing win as soon as i raise the stakes.

 

As mentioned before there is no "beginners protection" in the casino world. The software company doesn't care if Casino A or Casino B have big winners. They get their cut every month from the large cake (all casinos using their software). Also, these "need to feed in order to get paid" mechanisms are not even needed for the software company. They are looking at the whole massive cake across all casinos using and the result from this will land VERY close to the theoretical equilibrium without any tampering what so ever every month because of the high amount of play across all casinos combined. The fact of the matter is, that they stand to lose their entire business if they were doing this and for what really? For them the result is the same.

 

Regarding the old school slots such as Jackpot 6000, the reason for not allowing bonus money wagering on these (or requiring different wagering on these) is not because of the way they do their payback. It is because they have a potential 99% payback ratio vs. generally smaller ratios for normal machines. The reason for this is that these machines gives players options (take the winnings or play for the jackpot) and the software company has created the game so that even if you, as a player, make choices that are not optimal for you the results should still be up there with all the other slots. So for the players that know how to play these machines perfectly, they simply get even better returns all the way up to these 99%. The normal wagering requirements most casinos use for bonuses simply becomes exploitable with a 99% payback ratio. That is why Roulette for instance most often also have different requirements. Simply because the theoretical payback is a bit higher than most other games and that makes your bonuses vulnerable to abuse. 

 

Obviously, none of us can be really sure about how the mechanics of these slots really work but one thing I know for sure is that the software companies have no benefit from tampering with game results in any way so I find it truly unlikely that they would risk their business doing so. But I really enjoy the discussion and would love to get more input from you guys - even if you disagree wholeheartedly with me

 

Have a great night.

 

Kind regards,

Mike

[Luciana]

I am truly impressed by this discussion and I red it from the top to the very bottom (which is not my characteristic when I see looong posts)

And I'm also impressed by our recently joined Anna Casino representatives, their activity and opinion. And of course, I'm amazed by luckyloser's and Afi's posts. So proud of having you all here. Respect! 

 

I'll try to join this topic.

 

Regarding new casinos -> Sometimes I am thinking the same thing - What if new casino has a very big winner(s) in the beginning? You need to be a millionaire to start running an online casino because of that. And working with a lot of new casinos proven me that if you do start an online operating, you really need to be prepared financially and aware of a big risk you're getting into. But more important thing, in my opinion, is to have a really really perfect campaign plan and casino Terms&Conditions. T&C don't have to be cruel and unfair for players to benefit casino, but really wisely planned and conceived - in the way to protect casino from minuses, but to be still enough attractive to the players.

One of the common "armours" is a rule from T&C that limits player's maximum bet to, for example 6x an original bet..at least when you're playing with bonus.

Also, maximum withdrawal amounts can be limited on monthly or daily basis, allowing casino to pay in instalments.

Maximum cash-outs from free spins and other no deposit bonuses are also pretty limited. 

These are just basic examples of a well planned casino business. Other aspects might include budget and marketing relationship, VIP programs, bonus structures, campaign creatives etc.

Sometimes casinos are suddenly excluding some games from bonus program or giving a smaller contribution to wagering requirements on these games.

 

Example:

 

 

 

This screen shot, made me wonder - Why Dead or Alive is suddenly so popular and how come everybody seem to make significant wins on it, while some casinos started restricting it and even categorising it as an abusive game? Today, if I would suggest to casino manager to create a bonus with some additional free spins on Dead or Alive - they would probably refuse it, but players would be happy. One or two years ago, I remember like it was yesterday - I suggested free spins on DOA, as an addition to a bonus and she accepted (so she followed my suggestion), but when I came here and notify forum members there's gonna be such bonus - I faced kinda disappointing reaction: "This slot has only 9 paylines" "I'd prefer having those free spins on Gonzo's Quest" and similar. So, how's DOA suddenly a big discovery and paying so much and so many players? Is that because now much more players are playing DOA at the same time, therefore they increase the possibilities for big wins to be triggered?

A second question that came across my mind is - Why, for example, South Park, which theoretically has THE SAME RTP of 96.8% as DOA, is not even closely popular and payable as DOA? Is it because there's no free spins or 2x wins from the free spins that DOA has? I know that once I completed Reel Chaos' bonus game and I was surprised how little I won after such a battle! So, maybe this game's features are not so attractive as DOA's? But also, 9 paylines of DOA comparing to 20 paylines of Reel Chaos. More than doubled combination chances on Reel Chaos' side. I would like to hear opinion on this matter too, although I might have gone a bit off topic.

 

Regarding RNG and screen full of wilds - In my head, I can compare the whole system as a safe, which requires a combination of numbers to be unlocked.

So, for example, if I imagine DOA like a big safe with 15 fields (5 rows x 3 lines) on the screen, that can be unlocked only if all the fields are covered with Wilds. You have to hit the exact combination to unlock it..which would require a millions and millions of combinations to be tried - so the number from RNG that is assigned to a particular symbol really really has to match with all other RNG numbers assigned to other symbols and they all have to be WILDS. Sounds really impossible for me. 

[Luciana]

PS. This rule too, which is btw coming from one pretty decent and popular casino:

 

"The amount payable in terms of bonus amounts turned into real funds will be capped up to a maximum payment value of €25,000 euros. Any amount surpassing the cap will be paid out solely at discretion of *name censorship* Casino."

[zerooo]

wowowo. i see nice topic here talking about how the slots work so i wanted to jump in..and say something.. i think the slots are programmed in that way that protect casinos, no matter what. on the other side where we are playing the the random number generator (RNG) calculating some kind of algorithms and give us results - which is display as symbols in the game and afterall winnings.

while i was playing i saw many slots as cold or hot but i don't think they could changed the fact or timing when the slot will give us big win. if they could changed this and controled it, why would they than some games included into bonus rules. for example DOA; it is prohibit to play it with the bonus on many many casinos, at the others casinos is limited to 50% for counting as bonus waggering or why some casinos just don't offer it anymore at all?!

 

i don't know how was at the begining when this game was relased, but i think like Luciana says more and more players play it. and my opinion is even if we don't have big win for long time, someone wins while we are losing.

[AnnaCasinoOfficial]

I am truly impressed by this discussion and I red it from the top to the very bottom (which is not my characteristic when I see looong posts)

And I'm also impressed by our recently joined Anna Casino representatives, their activity and opinion. And of course, I'm amazed by luckyloser's and Afi's posts. So proud of having you all here. Respect! 

 

I'll try to join this topic.

 

Regarding new casinos -> Sometimes I am thinking the same thing - What if new casino has a very big winner(s) in the beginning? You need to be a millionaire to start running an online casino because of that. And working with a lot of new casinos proven me that if you do start an online operating, you really need to be prepared financially and aware of a big risk you're getting into. But more important thing, in my opinion, is to have a really really perfect campaign plan and casino Terms&Conditions. T&C don't have to be cruel and unfair for players to benefit casino, but really wisely planned and conceived - in the way to protect casino from minuses, but to be still enough attractive to the players.

One of the common "armours" is a rule from T&C that limits player's maximum bet to, for example 6x an original bet..at least when you're playing with bonus.

Also, maximum withdrawal amounts can be limited on monthly or daily basis, allowing casino to pay in instalments.

Maximum cash-outs from free spins and other no deposit bonuses are also pretty limited. 

These are just basic examples of a well planned casino business. Other aspects might include budget and marketing relationship, VIP programs, bonus structures, campaign creatives etc.

Sometimes casinos are suddenly excluding some games from bonus program or giving a smaller contribution to wagering requirements on these games.

 

Example:

 

 

 

 

This screen shot, made me wonder - Why Dead or Alive is suddenly so popular and how come everybody seem to make significant wins on it, while some casinos started restricting it and even categorising it as an abusive game? Today, if I would suggest to casino manager to create a bonus with some additional free spins on Dead or Alive - they would probably refuse it, but players would be happy. One or two years ago, I remember like it was yesterday - I suggested free spins on DOA, as an addition to a bonus and she accepted (so she followed my suggestion), but when I came here and notify forum members there's gonna be such bonus - I faced kinda disappointing reaction: "This slot has only 9 paylines" "I'd prefer having those free spins on Gonzo's Quest" and similar. So, how's DOA suddenly a big discovery and paying so much and so many players? Is that because now much more players are playing DOA at the same time, therefore they increase the possibilities for big wins to be triggered?

A second question that came across my mind is - Why, for example, South Park, which theoretically has THE SAME RTP of 96.8% as DOA, is not even closely popular and payable as DOA? Is it because there's no free spins or 2x wins from the free spins that DOA has? I know that once I completed Reel Chaos' bonus game and I was surprised how little I won after such a battle! So, maybe this game's features are not so attractive as DOA's? But also, 9 paylines of DOA comparing to 20 paylines of Reel Chaos. More than doubled combination chances on Reel Chaos' side. I would like to hear opinion on this matter too, although I might have gone a bit off topic.

 

Regarding RNG and screen full of wilds - In my head, I can compare the whole system as a safe, which requires a combination of numbers to be unlocked.

So, for example, if I imagine DOA like a big safe with 15 fields (5 rows x 3 lines) on the screen, that can be unlocked only if all the fields are covered with Wilds. You have to hit the exact combination to unlock it..which would require a millions and millions of combinations to be tried - so the number from RNG that is assigned to a particular symbol really really has to match with all other RNG numbers assigned to other symbols and they all have to be WILDS. Sounds really impossible for me. 

 

Very often new casinos (if they are serious) are funded to a decent degree that limit the risk of them going under if they start out with a few bad months. But obviously it is every casino exec's nightmare to have huge winners coming in from all sides during the first 3 months of operation. Especially because, in most cases, casinos run with a pretty hefty minus for their first months open. Having to give everyone coming in first deposit bonuses, incentives at sign ups etc. and run the casino with low activity is a more costly affair than most players probably think and hence, most casinos, even if they are succeeding in creating the number of players and the activity from the players that they had hoped for, has to live with the fact that they are losing in the beginning - even at normal payout ratios. Bring a few highrolling mega winners into this mix and you have a Casino Manager that is not sleeping at night

 

Regarding the max bet rule. This one really sucks (for the casinos as well) but it kinda have to be there. On a casino with 35 x playthrough requirements on bonuses there are ways to exploid the bonus if there is no maximum bet. This would back in the days not be a problem since it was such few players who knew how to do it and actually did it but these days there are huge syndicates looking for exploidable T&C and when they find them they HAMMER the casinos very hard. There are only two ways to get around this: Raise playthrough requirements considerably or put in a maximum bet. The last options seems the least intrusive to the regular player. We are, however, trying to come up with ways to get around this but it is not easy. However, at Anna Casino we decide on a case-by-case if we want to enforce this rule. If it seems obvious that the player is completely normal and simply wanted to try out his/her luck with a few big spins because there was good winnings in the wallet, we don't hold back payment. We only enforce this rule when we can observe bonus abuse in the player behavior.

 

Regarding Dead or Alive, this game is really good "proof" that there is no protection for casinos in this industry in terms of how the games work. The reason why casino managers block this game or demote it to 50% value on playthrough requirements (or in some cases remove it completely) is to avoid big swings. This game is probably the worst/best (depending on how you look at it) in the risk/reward department. When playing this game, more often than not, you will spin the wheels and get nothing or small wins forever and ever and ever. But then all of a sudden a 10.000 times your bet win comes in. Casino Managers hate this kind of variance where they risk losing big and hence they want to guide players away from this game by creating rules about it or remove it. They simply don't want to take the chance of a player hitting one of these mega wins on a €10 spin or something like that.

 

But please note that there is no change in the payback. The 3 above games can easily all have the exact same 97% payback ratio. Games are just constructed differently so there is something for everyone:

 

Game A: You get lots of small wins and medium wins but few big wins and hardly ever any mega wins. Players who play these are often recreational players that just want to have a good time and as much playing time for their buck.

 

Game B: More spins with nothing coming back than game A, fewer small and medium wins but a higher degree of big wins and more mega wins

 

Game C: You feel like you are spinning and spinning forever and ever and ever without even a payback of the bet amount. But these machines can then pay REALLY BIG when you do hit and they do so way more often than the other types.

 

Dead or Alive is a game C type of game (and probably the worst of the type C games out there) and hence you hear about more players striking it big on that game but all of the games really have somewhat the same payback percentage.

 

 

wowowo. i see nice topic here talking about how the slots work so i wanted to jump in..and say something.. i think the slots are programmed in that way that protect casinos, no matter what. on the other side where we are playing the the random number generator (RNG) calculating some kind of algorithms and give us results - which is display as symbols in the game and afterall winnings.

while i was playing i saw many slots as cold or hot but i don't think they could changed the fact or timing when the slot will give us big win. if they could changed this and controled it, why would they than some games included into bonus rules. for example DOA; it is prohibit to play it with the bonus on many many casinos, at the others casinos is limited to 50% for counting as bonus waggering or why some casinos just don't offer it anymore at all?!

 

i don't know how was at the begining when this game was relased, but i think like Luciana says more and more players play it. and my opinion is even if we don't have big win for long time, someone wins while we are losing.

 

I can guarantee you that with all the Dead or Alive spins going on across the globe this game is pretty close to paying out its natural payback ratio every day. So when all of you are losing and feel like you get a 50% payback - someone else is winning. And with DoA it will be fewer people winning than on for instance the type A slots I mentioned above and hence their winnings are much larger on avr.. 

 

Choosing a favorite slot is really a lot about personality: You can go for one where you have a decent chance at tripling your money. Or, you can go for one that will probably milk you more often than not but will leave you with a much larger chance of hitting something VERY big.

[ValDes]

To be honest, I was intentionally refraining from taking part in this discussion so far, happy to hear as many different points of view and opinions as possible and truly hoping to to find a confirmation of my own observations regarding such an important aspect of online gambling as how slots actually work...

Refraining till now...

We had several similar discussion before here in the forum, some of them containing even more facts and detailed analyses. Most of these discussions were either started by players who had some doubts regarding the fairness of a particular video slot or provider in general or who didn't have a clue what complicated acronyms such as RNG, RTP, TRTP, etc even mean. Afi4wins himself started a great discussion some time ago regarding the difference between Real play and Practice play in Playtech, a discussion supported by some serious amount of facts and evidence...And during all this time I kept explaining over and over again what RTP is, what RNG is, how these were used in online gambling, how trusted and honest and fair all these software giants like Playtech, Microgaming and NetEnt are...

BUT, why I am telling you all this? With a single purpose.

We Do Not Know How Slots Work! PERIOD!

It doesn't matter what Guru. or Afi, or luckyloser, or Anna casino rep, or some unknown Swedish forum member has ever said, or posted, of suggested, or speculated about... We know nothing and what we do is only speculating and assuming how slots work! And here comes the most important question, which unfortunately, none of you ever asked..

Why We Do Not Know How Slots Work?

And the answer is very very very simple...

Because gambling software providers DO NOT GIVE A HECK whether Guru, Afi, luckyloser, Anna casino rep or anyone else would know how these slots work as long as they keep playing /for players/ and duly pay their cut of the share /for casino reps/. These software companies have the full control over each and every single spin made by each and every single player across the globe across each and every single online casino. Then all these spins are audited by the relevant licensing authority, software companies pay their fees and taxes and that's it! That's the reality and we all must admit it no matter if we like it or not. Playtech, Microgaming, Net Entertainment, etc, after all these years and after all the billions of revenue on a yearly basis they made, yet none of them ever took care to explain in a simple and comprehensible way to their tens of millions of customers the mechanism in which their games! For Christ sake, just look at Microgaming, it is still 'hiding' the RTP for most of their video slots work?! Just look at how a multi-billion company describe how their games are working, it's simply ridiculous!

http://www.microgaming.co.uk/our-methods#technology

https://www.netent.com/about/random-number-generator/


In short, there is huge problem here and its called transparency! Or lack of such to be more precise. I am not saying software vendors are giving us 'rigged' games, not at all as I am totally convinced their games are truly fair, however as long as they refuse to give certain amount of information regarding the mechanism in which their games are working, there will always be forum discussions like this one. And to support my statements above I will give you two examples from my own experience. First one is connected with Afi4wins report which he made about all the differences found during an extensive comparison between Playetch's Free and Real play mode /check the thread here/. I sent Afi's findings to Playtech support with a request for investigation and opinion. Never received a reply.... Couple of year ago, I had a DOA session of 3450 spins with a RTP of 33.7%. Sent the complete gamelog which my casino courteously provided directly to NetEnt with a request of investigation and their opinion. Never received a reply...

So, my fellow forum mates, as long as do not receive straight forward answers to some question directly from our 'beloved' gaming providers, I'm afraid we could only talk and talk and talk...

And just in case if any of the big guys are reading through this topic, here are some of the answers I would to get answered by Microgaming, Playtech, NetEnt, etc etc

1. What is a payments cycle, does it even exist in the technology you are using and how it is being achieved?

2. Is there a predefined time frame in which the theoretical RTP is achieved? If yes, how long it is?

3. Is there a predefined number/set of spins in which the theoretical RTP is achieved? If yes, how much?

4. Is it obligatory for the RNG to produce at least once the max possible winning during a payment cycle?

5. Is there even the slightest opportunity to control player's individual RTP across all online brands using the same software?

6. What are the min requirements for a new online casino brand to acquire your services? Is there a requirement for such new casino to prove certain amount of money, licensing, independent audit and quality of service before granting your services? If yes, then how come that a fully audited, multi-billion company like yours is providing services to proven rogue casinos?

7. Do you know that by never answering these questions you would only make your loyal players and customers /like me/ to be even more suspicious?

[luckyloser]

Very often new casinos (if they are serious) are funded to a decent degree that limit the risk of them going under if they start out with a few bad months. But obviously it is every casino exec's nightmare to have huge winners coming in from all sides during the first 3 months of operation. Especially because, in most cases, casinos run with a pretty hefty minus for their first months open. Having to give everyone coming in first deposit bonuses, incentives at sign ups etc. and run the casino with low activity is a more costly affair than most players probably think and hence, most casinos, even if they are succeeding in creating the number of players and the activity from the players that they had hoped for, has to live with the fact that they are losing in the beginning - even at normal payout ratios. Bring a few highrolling mega winners into this mix and you have a Casino Manager that is not sleeping at night

 

Regarding the max bet rule. This one really sucks (for the casinos as well) but it kinda have to be there. On a casino with 35 x playthrough requirements on bonuses there are ways to exploid the bonus if there is no maximum bet. This would back in the days not be a problem since it was such few players who knew how to do it and actually did it but these days there are huge syndicates looking for exploidable T&C and when they find them they HAMMER the casinos very hard. There are only two ways to get around this: Raise playthrough requirements considerably or put in a maximum bet. The last options seems the least intrusive to the regular player. We are, however, trying to come up with ways to get around this but it is not easy. However, at Anna Casino we decide on a case-by-case if we want to enforce this rule. If it seems obvious that the player is completely normal and simply wanted to try out his/her luck with a few big spins because there was good winnings in the wallet, we don't hold back payment. We only enforce this rule when we can observe bonus abuse in the player behavior.

 

Regarding Dead or Alive, this game is really good "proof" that there is no protection for casinos in this industry in terms of how the games work. The reason why casino managers block this game or demote it to 50% value on playthrough requirements (or in some cases remove it completely) is to avoid big swings. This game is probably the worst/best (depending on how you look at it) in the risk/reward department. When playing this game, more often than not, you will spin the wheels and get nothing or small wins forever and ever and ever. But then all of a sudden a 10.000 times your bet win comes in. Casino Managers hate this kind of variance where they risk losing big and hence they want to guide players away from this game by creating rules about it or remove it. They simply don't want to take the chance of a player hitting one of these mega wins on a €10 spin or something like that.

 

But please note that there is no change in the payback. The 3 above games can easily all have the exact same 97% payback ratio. Games are just constructed differently so there is something for everyone:

 

Game A: You get lots of small wins and medium wins but few big wins and hardly ever any mega wins. Players who play these are often recreational players that just want to have a good time and as much playing time for their buck.

 

Game B: More spins with nothing coming back than game A, fewer small and medium wins but a higher degree of big wins and more mega wins

 

Game C: You feel like you are spinning and spinning forever and ever and ever without even a payback of the bet amount. But these machines can then pay REALLY BIG when you do hit and they do so way more often than the other types.

 

Dead or Alive is a game C type of game (and probably the worst of the type C games out there) and hence you hear about more players striking it big on that game but all of the games really have somewhat the same payback percentage.

 

 

 

I can guarantee you that with all the Dead or Alive spins going on across the globe this game is pretty close to paying out its natural payback ratio every day. So when all of you are losing and feel like you get a 50% payback - someone else is winning. And with DoA it will be fewer people winning than on for instance the type A slots I mentioned above and hence their winnings are much larger on avr.. 

 

Choosing a favorite slot is really a lot about personality: You can go for one where you have a decent chance at tripling your money. Or, you can go for one that will probably milk you more often than not but will leave you with a much larger chance of hitting something VERY big.

 

Really good reply here 

[luckyloser]

To be honest, I was intentionally refraining from taking part in this discussion so far, happy to hear as many different points of view and opinions as possible and truly hoping to to find a confirmation of my own observations regarding such an important aspect of online gambling as how slots actually work...

 

Refraining till now...

 

We had several similar discussion before here in the forum, some of them containing even more facts and detailed analyses. Most of these discussions were either started by players who had some doubts regarding the fairness of a particular video slot or provider in general or who didn't have a clue what complicated acronyms such as RNG, RTP, TRTP, etc even mean. Afi4wins himself started a great discussion some time ago regarding the difference between Real play and Practice play in Playtech, a discussion supported by some serious amount of facts and evidence...And during all this time I kept explaining over and over again what RTP is, what RNG is, how these were used in online gambling, how trusted and honest and fair all these software giants like Playtech, Microgaming and NetEnt are...

 

BUT, why I am telling you all this? With a single purpose.

 

We Do Not Know How Slots Work! PERIOD!

 

It doesn't matter what Guru. or Afi, or luckyloser, or Anna casino rep, or some unknown Swedish forum member has ever said, or posted, of suggested, or speculated about... We know nothing and what we do is only speculating and assuming how slots work! And here comes the most important question, which unfortunately, none of you ever asked..

 

Why We Do Not Know How Slots Work?

 

And the answer is very very very simple...

 

Because gambling software providers DO NOT GIVE A HECK whether Guru, Afi, luckyloser, Anna casino rep or anyone else would know how these slots work as long as they keep playing /for players/ and duly pay their cut of the share /for casino reps/. These software companies have the full control over each and every single spin made by each and every single player across the globe across each and every single online casino. Then all these spins are audited by the relevant licensing authority, software companies pay their fees and taxes and that's it! That's the reality and we all must admit it no matter if we like it or not. Playtech, Microgaming, Net Entertainment, etc, after all these years and after all the billions of revenue on a yearly basis they made, yet none of them ever took care to explain in a simple and comprehensible way to their tens of millions of customers the mechanism in which their games! For Christ sake, just look at Microgaming, it is still 'hiding' the RTP for most of their video slots work?! Just look at how a multi-billion company describe how their games are working, it's simply ridiculous!

 

http://www.microgaming.co.uk/our-methods#technology

 

https://www.netent.com/about/random-number-generator/

 

 

In short, there is huge problem here and its called transparency! Or lack of such to be more precise. I am not saying software vendors are giving us 'rigged' games, not at all as I am totally convinced their games are truly fair, however as long as they refuse to give certain amount of information regarding the mechanism in which their games are working, there will always be forum discussions like this one. And to support my statements above I will give you two examples from my own experience. First one is connected with Afi4wins report which he made about all the differences found during an extensive comparison between Playetch's Free and Real play mode /check the thread here/. I sent Afi's findings to Playtech support with a request for investigation and opinion. Never received a reply.... Couple of year ago, I had a DOA session of 3450 spins with a RTP of 33.7%. Sent the complete gamelog which my casino courteously provided directly to NetEnt with a request of investigation and their opinion. Never received a reply...

 

So, my fellow forum mates, as long as do not receive straight forward answers to some question directly from our 'beloved' gaming providers, I'm afraid we could only talk and talk and talk...

 

And just in case if any of the big guys are reading through this topic, here are some of the answers I would to get answered by Microgaming, Playtech, NetEnt, etc etc

 

1. What is a payments cycle, does it even exist in the technology you are using and how it is being achieved?

 

2. Is there a predefined time frame in which the theoretical RTP is achieved? If yes, how long it is?

 

3. Is there a predefined number/set of spins in which the theoretical RTP is achieved? If yes, how much?

 

4. Is it obligatory for the RNG to produce at least once the max possible winning during a payment cycle?

 

5. Is there even the slightest opportunity to control player's individual RTP across all online brands using the same software?

 

6. What are the min requirements for a new online casino brand to acquire your services? Is there a requirement for such new casino to prove certain amount of money, licensing, independent audit and quality of service before granting your services? If yes, then how come that a fully audited, multi-billion company like yours is providing services to proven rogue casinos?

 

7. Do you know that by never answering these questions you would only make your loyal players and customers /like me/ to be even more suspicious?

 

I would love if net ent and MG came into the forum and answered or explained allitle about slots.. Would put allot of conspirsacy theories to rest.

 

The fact that they dont ever give an answer is what makes me more suspicious.

[AnnaCasinoOfficial]

Great post ValDes and you are obviously correct. Since the most vital part of the game build up is a corporate secret, only known to insiders and auditors (license authority and internal auditors) the details are a well kept secret. However, you can get information out of the software companies if you catch them on even ground and look them in the eyes and ask. The "deck of cards" analogy that I used in another forum, I got from a representative of a software company. Granted, it was a long time ago and things can have changed but it is still the best source on the subject that I have had the chance of talking to. Basically, you can imagine each spin as a card. For visualization purposes you can see each card as having a screenshot on it (the total picture that lands when the spin is done). The number of cards is obviously staggering and it really becomes a mindbender when you think about feature games (that in themselves have a lot of different sub results that can be returned).

 

Whenever you press spin the RNG picks a card and the software apply the graphics (which can be anything from a simple spin to a whole line of features, re-spins etc.) and sound on your screen and payout the result. If you were able to place a wager of €1 on every single card you would end up with the percentage payback that the machine is programmed to payout. But since the machine picks the cards at random the result has an implied statistical variance and the gambling element is introduced. Get lucky and get 5 good cards in a session and you will end up a winner. If not, you end up with a loss.

 

Since some of these cards offer extremely high payouts a lot of these have to be returned with zero or a very low win in order to balance the payout ratio over time. So even over 2.000 spins you can get unlucky and pick only very few good cards and end up with a horrendous payback percentage. This is even more true for games like DoA, which have more of the mega win cards than many other slots and hence have to have a higher percentage of bad cards. These type of slots produce most of the horror stories of many spins with under 50% return etc.. The flip side of that coin are those crazy stories where a player deposits 50 and walks away with amazing amounts. Not from a jackpot or one big win but simply from hitting the hottest machine ever and raising stakes as they go along.

 

To be honest, because I have failed to really see a motive behind the software provider manipulating the machines away from the "true random distribution" model, I have always accepted that this must be the way things are done. They have so many spins on their machines every day that no matter how they distributed the winnings it wouldn't matter much. At the end of the month the payback percentage would be very close to the theoretical one.

 

But getting to your point, which I completely agree with, it is all about trust. As a player you can always know through the licencor (if this is a reputable one) that the game is fair and does in fact return as advertised. But you have to take it at face value if the software company tells you that there is no such thing as patterns and control in relation to when and how the winning combinations are distributed and that it is all random. And to be honest I highly doubt that the big software companies will ever put the programming public for interested players to see for themselves so it will probably always be like this.

[luckyloser]

The thing is i have never questioned the payout % of these games. I know they pay what they are supposed to pay.

But its how they arrive at this payout % that is the interesting part.

There may be other mechanics than randomness, a reason for this you may ask? Well, fore example a game that has more near misses, or the how the variance itself behaves can make a game boring or fun.

 

The more fun or exiting a game is the more people play. So thats one of the motives they may have to "controll" the variance. As an example DoA thats one of my favourite slots and is a very popular slot. It has countless threads in every gambling forum.

The thing is tough, as i said in another thread its been paying allot poorer the last 3 months or so than before. Not only to me, but other forum members and people on other forums has made threads about this also.

 

My question is simply the lisencing authority they really dont bother about how the pays are structured right? As long as the game pays what its supposed to pay over that spessific time periode. Lets say DoA has gotten very popular among more recreational players also, not just the hardcore high variance slot players. Net ent might have adjusted the variance on the game, or maybe it pays more on the lower bets. Most screenshots i have seen latley has been on very low bets.

 

And allot of people seam to have had a horrible time with this game latley.

 

I have basicly hammered this game for 2-3 years now. I have had so many wins from 2500x - 10 000x that i have lost track of how many. The thing is before this game used to almost always give allot of bonus rounds. And yes most paid crapp, but it seams its been allot harder the last 3 months or so to get:

 

A) The bonus round (Might get a few in a streak, but before it would come in allot more often and some times go on crazy streaks where it came every 20-50 spins untill you hit the jackpot, could basicly spot when this was about to happen)

 

The average bonus round return seams to have been adjustet to pay lower. (Not just me saying this)

 

C) Get a no wild bonus round allot more often now that before, infact in the last 2 years i think this was a fluke that happend to me now and then,but now it happens almost every other session.

 

D) Before if i played this game about every day fore a week or so i would hit a wildline or 5 scatters, but now it seams its waaaaay more difficult to get that "Ace" card in the card deck.

 

E) The 5 extra spins but no wildline used to come ALLOT more often than now.

 

And im not the only one notecing this, its definitely not the same game.

 

Also take all the newest games from allot of providers NetEnt in particular. Their new games seams to be mostley very low variance but they are still very volatile... How is this even possible? There are more dead spins on stickers,neon stack and dracula than on DoA. And this trend seams to continue.

 

I swear some day they will design a game that you cannot make a proffit on. Because basicly on the newer games the "Randomness" aand"variance" seams so weird that its if they have designed the games so that it will give you some playtime but no proffit, never.

 

This itself makes me think its not all random like that.. It might be random who wins the money or not but the spins and stuff just seams controlled in some manner. Paricularly the way DoA has changed latley im certain something has been done to this game and the "timer theory" in my OP seam to go hand in hand with this.

[luckyloser]

The flip side of that coin are those crazy stories where a player deposits 50 and walks away with amazing amounts. Not from a jackpot or one big win but simply from hitting the hottest machine ever and raising stakes as they go along.

 

 

 

If it is truly random then there is no such thing as a hot machine. Then its just random luck.. But these amazing streaks do happen, had one myself now and then. And the crazy thing about it is it doessent matter what game you play when its hot its hot no matter what and vice versa. Thats another argument i have against it being random

[AnnaCasinoOfficial]

If it is truly random then there is no such thing as a hot machine. Then its just random luck.. But these amazing streaks do happen, had one myself now and then. And the crazy thing about it is it doessent matter what game you play when its hot its hot no matter what and vice versa. Thats another argument i have against it being random

 

A machine can still be hot/cold even if it is random. Try taking a few dice and play a game of even or uneven. Every time the roll is even you win - every time it is uneven you lose. Roll 5.000 times, note down the results and look them over afterwards. There will be a lot of clusters of periods where you are lucky and clusters where you are unlucky.

 

And if you roll those dice 1.000.000 times you will start seeing some truly amazing streaks. So of course they happen. Actually, I would be more worried for the integrity of the game if they didn't because statistically they are supposed to. Calling them hot/cold streaks is just the words gamblers use. You could also call them what they are but it sounds kinda foolish in the bar when you say: "I just had the best session of positive statistical variance on Dead or Alive ever - drinks are on me"

 

As mentioned earlier your mind is very good at playing tricks on you and doesn't like randomness. I am willing to bet that, if asked to try, you would probably overestimate the percentage of time that you were actually playing a cold/hot machine because your mind automatically zone in on those periods and kinda forgets the "boring stuff in the middle" where you were just winning/losing small or running even over a period of time.

[Luciana]

Since we're speaking about variety here, I can't resist not to ask - How do you recognise high, medium and low variance slots? Is there an obvious way or you discover it by playing or it goes together in package with game introduction (a description you get from provider)?

 

Thanks