King Billy Casino, terms and conditions on Cash back policy???

[Ruslan_KingBilly]

Dear Forum, dear Prince,First of all, let us point out something about cashback calculations. Obviously, all the basic calculations in an online casino are done by special software automatically, without intervention of human agent – it would be impossible with 600.000+ King Billy Casino Citizens to do otherwise. What does this mean? That cashbacks are by default, calculated correctly, disputing them is like arguing with a calculator.However, still, rare errors may occur, usually on the positive side for customers. Because of a player’s VIP status and value for a casino, sometimes players get extra cashback, on top of what they are entitled to, which is actually added by human agents (based on this principle, the Prince actually got 117 CAD more in his cashback for the last week).Now, regarding the period of Cashback from October 29, 2020 to November 04, 2020 (we would like to stress these dates, so that all of us understand the same things):• Period of Cashback 29.10 - 04.11.2020
• Total bet sum: 780 755 CAD
• Winning total amount: 774 670 CAD
• Net loss amount: 6084 CAD
• Bonus amount issued within the period: 483 CAD (very important, always calculated in cashbacks)
• Prince Cashback Formula: Total bet sum (780 755 CAD) – Winning total Amount (774 670 CAD) – Issued Bonuses (483 CAD) *0,1
• Final Cashback according to the above official King Billy formula: 560 CAD
• The Prince got 677 CAD from us during this period (117 CAD more as we said before), but you know, Princes do have their special privileges.

APPENDIX TO THE ABOVE:
• For the period of Oct 29 to Nov 4, the Prince also got 4266 CAD as Cashback for the previous week of Oct 22 to October 28 (by our T&C’s, this amount is not calculated into cashback)
• For the period of Oct 29 to Nov 4, the Prince also got 1092 CAD from our King’s Points program (by our T&C’s, this amount is not calculated into cashback)

We hope the situation is now clear,

 

The King Billy Team

[niran]

4 hours ago, Ruslan_KingBilly said:

Dear Forum, dear Prince,First of all, let us point out something about cashback calculations. Obviously, all the basic calculations in an online casino are done by special software automatically, without intervention of human agent – it would be impossible with 600.000+ King Billy Casino Citizens to do otherwise. What does this mean? That cashbacks are by default, calculated correctly, disputing them is like arguing with a calculator.However, still, rare errors may occur, usually on the positive side for customers. Because of a player’s VIP status and value for a casino, sometimes players get extra cashback, on top of what they are entitled to, which is actually added by human agents (based on this principle, the Prince actually got 117 CAD more in his cashback for the last week).Now, regarding the period of Cashback from October 29, 2020 to November 04, 2020 (we would like to stress these dates, so that all of us understand the same things):• Period of Cashback 29.10 - 04.11.2020
• Total bet sum: 780 755 CAD
• Winning total amount: 774 670 CAD
• Net loss amount: 6084 CAD
• Bonus amount issued within the period: 483 CAD (very important, always calculated in cashbacks)
• Prince Cashback Formula: Total bet sum (780 755 CAD) – Winning total Amount (774 670 CAD) – Issued Bonuses (483 CAD) *0,1
• Final Cashback according to the above official King Billy formula: 560 CAD
• The Prince got 677 CAD from us during this period (117 CAD more as we said before), but you know, Princes do have their special privileges.

APPENDIX TO THE ABOVE:
• For the period of Oct 29 to Nov 4, the Prince also got 4266 CAD as Cashback for the previous week of Oct 22 to October 28 (by our T&C’s, this amount is not calculated into cashback)
• For the period of Oct 29 to Nov 4, the Prince also got 1092 CAD from our King’s Points program (by our T&C’s, this amount is not calculated into cashback)

We hope the situation is now clear,

 

The King Billy Team

I would like to apologize formally,  I was wrong in the total bet sum amount, it was $780, 755, but it doesn't change the claim I filed early this morning with Ask Gamblers complaint team. I will now have to edit the numbers but I was up all night investigating and found out a lot. I have cited authority in this claim but not going to explain it to you here Roslen! This will have to be settled with the complaint team. I'm done conversing on this matter on the forum because of the complaint I have filed. But just for your information even with your numbers I still get $7500 cad. Just to prove my point even further notice in the careful wording Roslen uses Total bet sum (780 755 CAD) – Winning total amount(774 670 CAD) – Issued Bonuses (483 CAD) *0,1. Notice he use winning total amount!

Now take a hard look at the terms and conditions for cashback below! See how they put total bet sum making sure to include the word total, and not including total in front of the winning amount! And that my friends is why I have cited authority on this claim!! When the complaint is filed I will let everyone know!!! keep you guys posted!!!!! 

[niran]

8 hours ago, Ruslan_KingBilly said:

Dear Forum, dear Prince,First of all, let us point out something about cashback calculations. Obviously, all the basic calculations in an online casino are done by special software automatically, without intervention of human agent – it would be impossible with 600.000+ King Billy Casino Citizens to do otherwise. What does this mean? That cashbacks are by default, calculated correctly, disputing them is like arguing with a calculator.However, still, rare errors may occur, usually on the positive side for customers. Because of a player’s VIP status and value for a casino, sometimes players get extra cashback, on top of what they are entitled to, which is actually added by human agents (based on this principle, the Prince actually got 117 CAD more in his cashback for the last week).Now, regarding the period of Cashback from October 29, 2020 to November 04, 2020 (we would like to stress these dates, so that all of us understand the same things):• Period of Cashback 29.10 - 04.11.2020
• Total bet sum: 780 755 CAD
• Winning total amount: 774 670 CAD
• Net loss amount: 6084 CAD
• Bonus amount issued within the period: 483 CAD (very important, always calculated in cashbacks)
• Prince Cashback Formula: Total bet sum (780 755 CAD) – Winning total Amount (774 670 CAD) – Issued Bonuses (483 CAD) *0,1
• Final Cashback according to the above official King Billy formula: 560 CAD
• The Prince got 677 CAD from us during this period (117 CAD more as we said before), but you know, Princes do have their special privileges.

APPENDIX TO THE ABOVE:
• For the period of Oct 29 to Nov 4, the Prince also got 4266 CAD as Cashback for the previous week of Oct 22 to October 28 (by our T&C’s, this amount is not calculated into cashback)
• For the period of Oct 29 to Nov 4, the Prince also got 1092 CAD from our King’s Points program (by our T&C’s, this amount is not calculated into cashback)

We hope the situation is now clear,

 

The King Billy Team

 

[niran]

20 hours ago, niran said:

 

Sorry, I just wanted to add one more thing in, because I couldn't edit the last post. if you look at what Ruslan posted there he posted my total winning amount correct, but what he really means by that is my total winning bet sum, and thats what he's adding in together. Because on the bet logs there are payoff sum and profit. so technically when he's putting winning total amount, that's what he means, which is deceiving! I already have all the info of authority I will be citing from there jurisdiction. So keep tuned in folks. 

Also, when he mentions that the cash backs are calculated by default, thats odd because  my Vip manager had informed me I wasn't going to get a cash back that week, based on how the "special software" automatically calculates. This guy is a real piece of work!! All my evidence will be shown on the complaint trust me guys, this will be good!!!

I just want to tell you the power of ask gamblers, because when I threatened to post a thread so everyone will be aware of the Cashback Bonus terms, guess what happened the very next morning, i got a SUPRISE email, from my vip manager telling me  I got a cashback!! 

So anyone who says Askgamblers is a scam or they work for the casino, bear witness because their reach is far and wide, trust me on this I am an example of this!!

 

Again I just want to thank the admin and the members for helping me out on this!! And I wouldn't of got to where I am with all the evidence of "Law", if it wasn't for you guys! shout out to Afi4wins and Valdes!!!

 

Sincerely,

 

Niran Kali

[niran]

Sorry, I just wanted to add one more thing in, because I couldn't edit the last post. the only thing that I admited to be incorrect was my total bet  amount! I never agreed that my total winning amount was correct!! for clarification! I'm very curious to know why I can't edit it!! Anyways,

AND THE WHOLE DISPUTE WAS WHAT MY WINNING BET IS!!

my WINNING TOTAL AMOUNT IS $333,435.25,  from the betting  the logs they sent me!!

so its Total bet sum (780 755 CAD) – Winning total amount( 333, 435.25) – Issued Bonuses (483 CAD) *10 = STILL GET $7500 CAD

If you look at what Ruslan posted there he posted my total bet amount correct but my total winning amount is incorrect, and thats what he's adding in together. which is totally different!

'Thursday Cashback' Bonus conditions:

• minimum net loss amount* (minus issued bonus and withdrawal sum) placed in the period from Thursday 00:00 till Wednesday 23:59 is €/$500 (750AU$/CAD); The
• The minimum deposits sum placed in the period from Thursday 00:00 till Wednesday 23:59 is €/$500 (750AU$/CAD);
• The refund is calculated using the formula for Prince status: (pot** - winning amount - received bonuses***) × 0.1; 
• Unavailable for Cryptocurrencies; 
• Wager Free / No Max Win; 
• net loss* = (total bet amount - total winning bet amount);
• pot** is the total bet sum;
• received bonuses***: the cashback bonus for the previous week, 'points for money' bonus, and canceled bonuses are not taken in count.

Due to those rules and conditions for getting the 'Thursday Cashback Bonus', your bonus ($677.09) has been automatically added to your account.

 

I have underlined the two equations one has total winning bet amount for figuring out net loss and the other winning amount to figure the CASHBACk!!, Two different equations and two different terminologies one payoff sum=total winning bet amount and profit=total winning amount, and this is on the betting logs they have provided me.

So obviously, they would have put the word bet  into the equation of the cashback formula, if they put it into the formula to qualify for a cashback, from what my rep sent me! because that makes a huge difference; the reason why my vip did that was because casinos aren't allowed to be ambiguous in their terms and conditions, they have to be understood completely.

 so technically when Ruslan_kingbilly is  putting winning total amount in his equation, he's means total winning bet amount.

 

 

 

[niran]

MGA GAMING PLAYER PROTECTION REGULATIONS

 

Part IV Unfair Terms

Criteria for terms

and conditions.

10.

(1)   Operators  shall  ensure  that  the  terms  and conditions  applicable  to  the  provision  of  their  gaming  service are Intelligible and easily accessible, and that changes thereto are made in a fair and transparent manner, and that players have explicitly accepted the latest version of the terms and conditions before being allowed to start or continue being the recipient of a gaming service.

(2)  Where  any  provision  in  such  terms  and  conditions  is ambivalent, or any reasonable doubt arises as to the meaning thereof, the interpretation most favourable to the player shall prevail.

Unfair terms.

Cap. 378.

11.

Operators  shall  ensure  that  the  terms  and  conditions applicable to the provision of their gaming service are not unfair in terms of Part VII of the Consumer Affairs Act

 

 

 

[niran]

stil no reply from King Billy casino regarding my questions about total winning bet amount and winning bet amount that my vip rep sent me!! and what it states in the terms and conditions on their website, and my latest post on MGA Regulations wonder why??

[niran]

I have got a email from my vip rep Vita from King Billy, and hopefully  trying to solve this matter!!  

[ValDes]

11 hours ago, niran said:

I have got a email from my amazing vip rep Vita from King Billy, and hopefully  trying to solve this matter!! 

Fingers crossed that your 'drama' with KingBilly is very close to its successful resolution.

[cocopop3011]

On 11/14/2020 at 7:46 PM, niran said:

I have got a email from my vip rep Vita from King Billy, and hopefully  trying to solve this matter!!  

Good to here, keep us posted niran.

[Ruslan_KingBilly]

Dear Forum, dear Prince,

1.    First of all, let us point out that the Prince’s account is related to kingbillycasino.com licensed by Curacao. Our MGA licensed site (kingbilly.com) is not relevant here. This DOES NOT mean that the Prince is treated unfairly, but there is no point in citing MGA (it is like the Prince had an argument with his neighbor in Canada over the lawn and citing, let’s say South Africa legislation). We would beg everyone here to remain relevant.

2.    “Total winnings amount" and "Winning amount" of the T&C is the same thing. The word “total” was added for emphasis. Let’s not make this a pointless linguistics game. Also, the "Profit" value which you see in your bet history does not count into the cashback formula in any way.

3.     We have to state here, that the Prince’s total bet amount is CA$ 780 755 and total winning amount for the period in question is CA$ 774 670. If, as mentioned in the above comments, the Prince had won only CA$330 000, it means that he had to lose around 400k with us which is not possible according to his deposit history. Let's do the math. The Prince states that his total winning amount is CA$ 330 000 and his total bet sum is CA$ 780 000. So, we have 780 000 - 330 000 = 450 000$ loses. His deposit sum for the period 28.10 - 4.11 is CA$ 8000 which means that he had won from this 8k around 440k and lost 450k. There are only 2 ways of how he could do this:
a)    He won 440k from this 8k, which is not logical because his total winning amount is 330 000 as he mentioned;
b)    He deposited 440k and lost all the money which is also not true according to your deposit history.

These are the only ways the Prince could expect CA$ 5000- 7500 as he requires from us.

4.    So, this is why we have explained to the Prince numerous times that the amount 330k he mentions is his profit from the game session from 28.11 till 04.11. Let’s say it again: Profit does not relate to the cashback formula in any way.

5.    We have already stated in our previous reply about calculation: Prince Cashback Formula: Total bet sum (780 755 CAD) – Winning total Amount (774 670 CAD) – Issued Bonuses (483 CAD) *0,1. The "winning total amount" is way more than CA$ 330 000 and we are ready to prove it with all screens to our respectful ADR

Dear Forum, we kindly ask the Prince to verify all the above with you, or any other online gaming consultant or lawyer/attorney he wishes to. To our opinion, the Prince has been carried away and is engaged in a frustrating situation which steals the joy of gaming from him.

Thank you once again, 

The King Billy Team

[niran]

4 hours ago, Ruslan_KingBilly said:

Dear Forum, dear Prince,

1.    First of all, let us point out that the Prince’s account is related to kingbillycasino.com licensed by Curacao. Our MGA licensed site (kingbilly.com) is not relevant here. This DOES NOT mean that the Prince is treated unfairly, but there is no point in citing MGA (it is like the Prince had an argument with his neighbor in Canada over the lawn and citing, let’s say South Africa legislation). We would beg everyone here to remain relevant.

2.    “Total winnings amount" and "Winning amount" of the T&C is the same thing. The word “total” was added for emphasis. Let’s not make this a pointless linguistics game. Also, the "Profit" value which you see in your bet history does not count into the cashback formula in any way.

3.     We have to state here, that the Prince’s total bet amount is CA$ 780 755 and total winning amount for the period in question is CA$ 774 670. If, as mentioned in the above comments, the Prince had won only CA$330 000, it means that he had to lose around 400k with us which is not possible according to his deposit history. Let's do the math. The Prince states that his total winning amount is CA$ 330 000 and his total bet sum is CA$ 780 000. So, we have 780 000 - 330 000 = 450 000$ loses. His deposit sum for the period 28.10 - 4.11 is CA$ 8000 which means that he had won from this 8k around 440k and Lost 450k. There are only 2 ways of how he could do this:
a)    He won 440k from this 8k, which is not logical because his total winning amount is 330 000 as he mentioned;
b)    He deposited 440k and lost all the money which is also not true according to your deposit history.

These are the only ways the Prince could expect CA$ 5000- 7500 as he requires from us.

4.    So, this is why we have explained to the Prince numerous times that the amount 330k he mentions is his profit from the game session from 28.11 till 04.11. Let’s say it again: Profit does not relate to the cashback formula in any way.

5.    We have already stated in our previous reply about calculation: Prince Cashback Formula: Total bet sum (780 755 CAD) – Winning total Amount (774 670 CAD) – Issued Bonuses (483 CAD) *0,1. The "winning total amount" is way more than CA$ 330 000 and we are ready to prove it with all screens to our respectful ADR

Dear Forum, we kindly ask the Prince to verify all the above with you, or any other online gaming consultant or lawyer/attorney he wishes to. To our opinion, the Prince has been carried away and is engaged in a frustrating situation which steals the joy of gaming from him.

Thank you once again, 

The King Billy Team

OMG this guy is not the sharpest tool in the tool box. I don't care about the word total in the words as I corrected myself in the chats above!! your terms and conditions are the same in kingbilly.com and kingbillycasino.com. And I was told by numerous people one AskGamblers that this casino was MGA regulated so buddy I don't know what your talking about. but by the end of the day I will give everyone all the emails and all the details proving my case. because you must think I don't have proof. You think I was going to show you my whole hand. Some people have no dignity and no ethics what so ever, At all I'm telling you!! If the terms and conditions are the same on both casinos, exactly the same!!! then for argument sake MGA rules do apply to the argument. Not to worry I will prove this! 

[ValDes]

14 minutes ago, niran said:

OMG this guy is not the sharpest tool in the tool box. I don't care about the word total in the words as I corrected myself in the chats above!! your terms and conditions are the same in kingbilly.com and kingbillycasino.com. And I was told by numerous people one AskGamblers that this casino was MGA regulated so buddy I don't know what your talking about. but by the end of the day I will give everyone all the emails and all the details proving my case. because you must think I don't have proof. You think I was going to show you my whole hand. Some people have no dignity and no ethics what so ever!! At all I'm telling you, if the terms and conditions are the same on both casinos exactly the same then for argument sake MGA rules do apply to the argument. Not to worry I will prove this! 

Hi @niran, 

Please make sure that this was the first and last time of using such tone of voice in your communication with official casino representatives here at the forum! We will not tolerate such blatant violations of the AskGamblers Forum Rules any longer so you may consider this as your first and last warning. 

For your information, the clarification made by the KingBilly Casino rep above was in fact very important as they are currently operating two brands with the same name but operating under different license - a fact which if of crucial importance should you  decide to escalate the matter in front of the relevant regulatory body and/or ADR provider, simply because the complaints process is totally different. For your convenience, please find more info below:

https://www.kingbillycasino.com/ - Operating under Curacao license, more license info here; 

https://www.kingbilly.com/ - Operating under MGA license, more license info here. 

In addition, we believe that you have already been given all the necessary information and additional details in regards of the discussed issue. Apparently, you still have fundamental disagreements with the facts presented during the forum discussion, therefore and as suggested already on previous occasions, you'd better consider discussing the matter with the relevant regulatory body which is the only competent authority to investigate adequately a dispute of that nature as they will have access to all the relevant session logs, back-office operations and any other details that might be relevant to a potential investigation.  

Thanks in advance for your cooperation. 

 

 

[niran]

12 minutes ago, ValDes said:

Hi @niran, 

Please make sure that this was the first and last time of using such tone of voice in your communication with official casino representatives here at the forum! We will not tolerate such blatant violations of the AskGamblers Forum Rules any longer so you may consider this as your first and last warning. 

For your information, the clarification made by the KingBilly Casino rep above was in fact very important as they are currently operating two brands with the same name but operating under different license - a fact which if of crucial importance should you  decide to escalate the matter in front of the relevant regulatory body and/or ADR provider, simply because the complaints process is totally different. For your convenience, please find more info below:

https://www.kingbillycasino.com/ - Operating under Curacao license, more license info here; 

https://www.kingbilly.com/ - Operating under MGA license, more license info here. 

In addition, we believe that you have already been given all the necessary information and additional details in regards of the discussed issue. Apparently, you still have fundamental disagreements with the facts presented during the forum discussion, therefore and as suggested already on previous occasions, you'd better consider discussing the matter with the relevant regulatory body which is the only competent authority to investigate adequately a dispute of that nature as they will have access to all the relevant session logs, back-office operations and any other details that might be relevant to a potential investigation.  

Thanks in advance for your cooperation. 

 

 

I apologize for my tone!! and will rebuttal more civilly since we are discussing it here.

[Blackjax]

I have been keeping an eye on this topic for a while. The last time I decided to post on a topic the Author got offended.

 The thing is that the Author if this topic Niran is multiplying the cumulative amount by 10. You are wrong Mr Niran. You have to multiply the obtained amount by 0.1.

After you subtract all bonus and winning amount from your bet you get 5602. You have to multiply this amount by 0.1 and not 10. Then you get final figure of 560. 

Kingbilly representative is right.

This is just a math problem gone wrong.

[niran]

Dear Forum and Ruslan,

Before I get to your questions stated above I just want everyone to understand what I was going through and how I came to these conclusions.

On the date of Nov 4, 2020 I had a conversation with Martin from King Billy support team about how much cash back I was going to get for that week, he informed me that I wasn't going to get any because I didn’t deposit the minimum amount of 750 cad. But that wasn’t true I actually deposited $8k cad that week. He then gave me this equation to calculate Cashback Bonus for that week.: Duke: (total deposit amount - total cashout sum - received bonuses) × 0.07. As stated in the chat below:

Martin Naer (08:52:07): Oh, sorry, as I've checked, your account is not available for the cashback

Martin Naer (08:52:12): Please, let me explain that the Thursday Cashback Bonus calculation is based on the following formula: total deposits amount (500 EUR+) placed in the period from Thursday 00:00 till Wednesday 23:59 minus the total cashout sum within a specified time and minus the total bonuses received sum for the mentioned period.

-The cashback is calculated using the formula for Duke: (total deposit amount - total cashout sum - received bonuses) × 0.07.

Martin Naer (08:53:26): You have spent in our casino from last Thursday till now is less than 500EUR, and your account is not eligible for cashback today

----Now nowhere in the terms and conditions mentions anything about this, I have an image below from King Billy terms and conditions and this is the equation: (pot-winning amount-bonus)*10 So where did Martin get all this info from? when he has the terms and conditions literally infront of him! Then I ask Martin where is pot in your equation and where is winning amount in your equation, like where did you actually get this info from? he then begins to define to me that “pot means deposit amoun” and winning amount is “the amount you have won from free spins its like cash out”. Chat below:

[email protected] (08:59:14): there is no cashout sum on there

[email protected] (08:59:28): and the pot wager is there

[email protected] (08:59:43): like you guys creat your own rules everytime

Martin Naer (09:00:40): You can contact your VIP manager to specify it

[email protected] (09:01:16): why doesn't it say minus cashout sum

[email protected] (09:01:30): you just made that up

[email protected] (09:01:41): show me in terms and conditions where it says that

[email protected] (09:02:07): and what about the pot winning amount and wager

[email protected] (09:02:17): how come you never mentioned that??

Martin Naer (09:02:42): What do you mean?

[email protected] (09:03:48): on your Cashback terms and conditions it clearly states!!

[email protected] (09:04:32): it mentions n nothing bout cashout sum

[email protected] (09:05:43): and my winning amounts and pot you never mentioned that

[email protected] (09:06:21): where is vita

Martin Naer (09:08:36): Pot is the deposit amount

[email protected] (09:08:59): exactly I deposited 8k

[email protected] (09:09:27): my winning amount that week was over 50k

Martin Naer (09:09:45): The winning amount do not count

Martin Naer (09:09:54): Counts only deposits

[email protected] (09:09:57): so why does it say that

Martin Naer (09:10:09): Pot means DEPOSIT

[email protected] (09:10:25): what does winning amount mean

Martin Naer (09:11:52): Winning amount is the amount you won from the free spins it's like cashout

 

So at this point I’m so confused because I’m a newbie to online casinos, and I really never got the terminology down! So when Martin is explaining everything to me, I’m lost because he literally is being told what to say or is making everything up, so I start getting suspicious because the week before my cashback was $4200. Then he goes on telling me that my vip manager Vita will contact me and explain everything to me as well.

 

Instead on Nov 4, 2020 at 9:18am, I emailed my vip manager, image is below, explaining to her about the conversation I had with Martin and how he  was giving me false information. I explained to Vita, what he defined pot to mean and winning amount to mean, and asked her for clarification on the matter, as you can tell in the email I was frustrated!

 

then Nov 4, 2020 at 12:58pm, my vip manager emailed me back explaining to me the same thing, that Martin had clearly explained that my total deposit amount is $8250 and my withdrawal was $8000. So she is actually agreeing with Martin, but now applying it to the formula to qualify to get a cashback.

So she did “$8.250 - $8.000 = less than the required minimum for getting the cashback bonus ($750)”

as you can see in the image of the terms and conditions here below no where does it mention anything about withdrawals affecting my cashout! and no calculation for qualifying to get a cashback.  But it does mention deposits affecting my cashout, $750 CAD.

 

4. WEEKLY BONUS “EVERY THURSDAY: KING'S GIFT!” (CASHBACK)

4.1. Min deposit values from 00:00 (UTC) since last Thursday until 23:59 (UTC) Wednesday (excluding current period) should be greater than: 500 EUR / 500 USD / 750 AUD / 750 NZD / 750 CAD / 5 000 NOK / 2 500 ZAR / 50 000 JPY / 25 000 RUB / 40 000 INR.

4.2. The minimum amount of cashback is EUR 35 / USD 35 / AUD 52.5 / CAD 52.5 / NZD 52.5 / YEN 3500 / INR 2800 / NOK 350 / ZAR 175 / RUB 1750 *Unavailable for cryptocurrencies.

4.3. Maximum amount of cashback: 5000 EUR / 5000 USD / 50 000 NOK / 7 500 AUD / 7 500 NZD / 250 000 RUB / 7 500 CAD / 75 000 ZAR / 500 000 JPY / 400 000 INR

4.4. Cashback is calculated using the formula:

for Duke / Duchess: (pot - winning amount - received bonuses) × 0.07.

for Prince / Princess: (pot - winning amount - received bonuses) × 0.10.

for King / Queen: (pot - winning amount - received bonuses) × 0.13.

4.5. The cashback period is defined as the week prior to the issuing of the bonuses, from 00:00 (UTC) Thursday until 23:59 (UTC) Wednesday.

4.6. This bonus is available for players who have already made four first deposits.

4.7. This bonus is available without any wager.

 

Now I was suspecting her of giving me false information about the cashback for the week, and had no idea where she was getting this information from? They still haven’t provided me with answers!

Then I emailed her at Nov 04, 1:07pm image below, clearly asking her what pot= and what win=.

Then on Nov 4, 2020 at 1:47 pm image below, I emailed her again explaining  my frustrations about what was going on, telling her there is clearly nothing in the terms and conditions that states a withdrawal would affect the cashback bonus. Also asking her what the definitions meant, so that I can post them on Askgamblers.com so from here on out other gamblers that go through the same will have a clear understanding, of the terms and conditions!

In the next email on Nov 05, 2020 6:39am, Vita my Vip manager apologizes profusely about her and Martin misleading me and explains to me that Cashback Bonus system has been updated on the platform providers side, and the agent and her did not  provide me with accurate information, about the minimum loss amount which proved my suspicions to be true! 

Now do you guys see a pattern here!!!

in the same email which I feel is the most important info she gives me,  because when I asked her to define all the terms, what pot= and win= in the terms and conditions of the Cashback Bonus, She sent me a new cashback policy that’s clearly not in the the terms and conditions of the Cashback bonus, because I checked!

Then she breaks down all the information so I understand what everything means in detail and she does a wonderful job:

“We've received the updated information with the cashback conditions. Please, let me explain how the system works in details:”

'Thursday Cashback' Bonus conditions:

• minimum net loss amount* (minus issued bonus and withdrawal sum) placed in the period from Thursday 00:00 till Wednesday 23:59 is €/$500 (750AU$/CAD); The
• The minimum deposits sum placed in the period from Thursday 00:00 till Wednesday 23:59 is €/$500 (750AU$/CAD);
• The refund is calculated using the formula for Prince status: (pot** - winning amount - received bonuses***) × 0.1; 
• Unavailable for Cryptocurrencies; 
• Wager Free / No Max Win; 
• net loss* = (total bet amount - total winning bet amount);
• pot** is the total bet sum;
• received bonuses***: the cashback bonus for the previous week, 'points for money' bonus, and canceled bonuses are not taken in count.

Due to those rules and conditions for getting the 'Thursday Cashback Bonus', your bonus ($677.09) has been automatically added to your account.

At this point in time remember I was so confused because I was not supposed to get a cashback at all, from what vita was emailing me above and what Ruslan stated above in his post "basic calculations in an online casino are done by special software automatically, without intervention of human agent – it would be impossible with 600.000+ King Billy Casino Citizens to do otherwise" therefore, no mistakes can happen usually overpayment!! More importantly the terms and conditions have not changed one bit at all for the 8 months I have been using king billy I was checking even to this date; therefore, it would of showed Vita if I was in fact getting a cashback! 

I still didn’t understand what any of the terms meant, and was confused with everything. But, the smartest thing I did was on Nov 05, 2020, was post a thread on the AskGamblers forum!!! Asking anyone for help with the formulas. But I was not able to get King Billy casino to help me at all!! But I did get help from the admin and other members, so  I started to research and investigate.

 

The Reason For Claim:

So based on the emails that I had:

-  emails I have containing numerous flip flop answers of what the cashback calculations were from  Oct 8 2020, to Nov 05, 2020

 - Vita my vip manager first she said I never qualified for the weekly cash back  because of deposit calculations which is nowhere to be found on the terms and   conditions

 - then provided me of a formula Deposit - withdrawal = less than min. $750  that is no where in the terms and conditions.

 - then she apologized profusely and sent me a brand new cash back policy  that it was updated from the platform side and again, there has been no   updates is in    the terms and condition.

 

But, what I did notice from the original terms and conditions weekly cashback policy and from the new weekly one that Vita sent me was that she included the wording Total Winning Bet amount in the equation for the calculation of the net loss formula,

net loss* = (total bet amount - total winning bet amount);

but she had kept Winning Amount in the equation for the cashback.

for Prince / Princess: (pot - winning amount - received bonuses) × 0.10.

 

Then after taking a look at what vita had sent me of how to calculate all of the information provided I realized that I was owed more than what I really assumed.

Imagine that, Because in the diagram she emailed me their were two diff. terms:

1 .Total winning bet amount.

2. Winning amount.

 

What does Total winning bet amount and winning amount mean:

Well if I'm gambling on live baccarat and I bet $1500, and I win, I get back $3000. Because when I made that initial bet of $1500, it was withdrawn out of my balance and then when I won I got $3000, but in reality I only won $1500.

My total Bet sum= $1500,  

My total winning bet amount = $3000    

My total winning amount = $1500

 

Why I’m bring this up, well because in the terms and conditions for the Cashback Bonus, King Billy will claim that in the equation: for Prince / Princess: (pot - winning amount - received bonuses) × 0.10. That winning amount  refers to total winning bet amount.

But it’s very important to look at the new policy that my Vip manager Vita sent me as evidence to prove my claim that the two terminologies exist and were used in two different contexts:

A. She made sure she added asterisks to make sure I understood terms and   definitions.

B. She was knew I was frustrated, because she mislead me and wanted everything defined, as the email shows.

C. She was very descriptive and analytical in the way she organized everything

D. She holds a Post of Senior Vip Manager; she is very experienced.

 

Therefore; when she added the two different terminologies Total Winning Bet Amount and Winning  Amount, King Billy Cant’ make the claim that it was a clerical error because of how well descriptive and analytically, it was written and because on numerous occasions I was complaining to her to define everything in great detail. Also because of the senior position she holds at King Billy, and for all of the flip flop emails sent to me regarding cashback policy.

Also the betting logs that I am providing you with show categories at the top of the columns. There you will see a payoff sum which is the total winning bet amount, and the profit which is the winning amount. Again proof that these terminologies exist and have two different definitions.

Also have chat transcript with King Billy support staff Stephan, that clearly states they have two different definitions. But before I get into that I just want to clarify something with AskGamblers forum, I had two ongoing complaints with King Billy so the relationship is sour to say the least. Everyone from their support team knows about these complaints. So, for investigative purposes I had to be sneaky in the way I asked questions, and only care about the answers that support my claim. So for the reason for this chat was only to confirm that the two definitions, the total winning bet sum and winning bet sum exist. So they can’t go back and say well no they mean the same thing, that was an error.

 

[email protected] (12:14:28): so what does total winning bet amount mean

[email protected] (12:17:36): hey you there

Stefan Serban (12:17:59): One moment please

Stefan Serban (12:18:43): It means that the total money returned to your account after all bets

[email protected] (12:19:33): so that means if I bet 1000 win 2000

[email protected] (12:19:42): my total winning bet amount is 2000

Stefan Serban (12:19:58): Yes, you are right

-Then I asked him what my winning bet meant he said,

[email protected] (12:20:07): and my winning bet is 1000

[email protected] (12:20:19): because thats what I have won

Stefan Serban (12:20:52): It is your profit from the bet but it does not calculate in the cashback formula

[email protected] (12:21:08): no I already have the cashback formula

[email protected] (12:21:33): I just waned to know the definitions of what they mean

[email protected] (12:21:35): that was it

[email protected] (12:22:31): forget about the cashback formula for right now

[email protected] (12:22:54): if I bet 1000 and win 2000 my total winning bet is 2000

[email protected] (12:23:22): it doesn't matter I have the answer you gave already thanks

 

Therefore,

The fact are there Are two different terminologies one is being the Total winning Bet Amount and the other Winning Amount two different things. And they in fact have two different terminologies, And whats on the Terms and Conditions of the Cashback policy clearly states Winning Amount! 

 

But what I want to clarify and prove is that In the emails you can see the she keeps changing the policy, I was unaware in the early stages because I was new to online gambling.

 

October 8, 2020 she sends me "(pot - total withdrawn amount- received bonuses) × 0.07.” but i'm a prince so it wound be 10% which doesn’t make a diff. It's what’s in the brackets.

 

October 26, 2020 she sends me, calculated using the formula for Prince: (pot - winning amount - received bonuses) × 0.10” 2 and half weeks the words after pot -  has been changed, does this even make sense????

 

Nov 04, 2020 she sends me "$8.250 - $8.000 = less than the required minimum for getting the cashback bonus ($750)” for qualifying for the cash back bonus, again no where in the terms and conditions states that. But she is using this same calculations in Oct 08, 2020.

 

Then Nov 11, 2020 she sends me this after numerous times asking her to please explain the Cashback Bonus and that she was flip flopping and misleading me:

 

'Thursday Cashback' Bonus conditions:

• The minimum net loss amount* (minus issued bonus and withdrawal sum) placed in the period from Thursday 00:00 till Wednesday 23:59 is €/$500 (750AU$/CAD); 
• The minimum deposits sum placed in the period from Thursday 00:00 till Wednesday 23:59 is €/$500 (750AU$/CAD);
• The refund is calculated using the formula for Prince status: (pot** - winning amount - received bonuses***) × 0.1; 
• Unavailable for Cryptocurrencies; 
• Wager Free / No Max Win; 
• net loss* = (total bet amount - total winning bet amount);
  pot** is the total bet sum;
  received bonuses***: the cashback bonus for the previous week, 'points for money' bonus, and canceled bonuses are not taken in count.

Its obvious if she put the word bet in one equation she would of put bet for winning amount

 

 

Conclusion:

Again I have researched on numerous online sites that states my that winning amount= net winning, not total winning bet amount, when calculating weekly cashback.  As you can see from all the emails I got they kept  flip flopping cashback formulas. Diff terminologies, diff. calculations which only makes you think really hard. Are they doing this not to pay me on numerous occasions! this is why I had to post  a thread onto the forum, asking everyones help. 

For ex. Ruslan was arguing about jurisdictions that one was Malta and the other Curaçao, which is true, but the same weekly cashback is on their terms and conditions for kingbilly.com as kingbillycasino.com. The Malta Gaming Authority have better regulations than curaçao and actually require and Alternative Dispute Resolution be appointed. And for Curacao  I can't find any  directory of regulations and they don't have an appointed ADR, and there are warnings regarding not to play at casinos attached to these licenses because you will get no help, what so ever! I  literally found this out today!!

So the argument Ruslan is giving for jurisdiction is:

if I'm in canada and was sold a product from two different countries, Malta and Curacao, and both are literally the exact same company, with two diff licenses, with the same  terms and conditions, one being regulated at a higher level then other; therefore, because Curaco has no regulations  they don't have to send me the product but for Malta because there is regulations which was clearly breached they have to send the product. 

better ex. Pretty much Malta is the U.k and Curacao is China! This to me is unfair! Again proving why my claim should be treated just as it was in MGA territory and all the regulations should be considered when looking at this case.

And honestly its about showing everyone what I went through, how I was continuously mislead to believe diff. Cashback schemes, which were not displayed on the terms and conditions. And this is where I get all this frustration from, this is why I felt I was mislead, and this is why I don't want this to happen to anyone else.

 

 

otice I underlined  winning amount and total winning bet amount, which are totally two different things because I would not be betting the large amounts that I was betting if the

 

[niran]

9 hours ago, Ruslan_KingBilly said:

Dear Forum, dear Prince,

1.    First of all, let us point out that the Prince’s account is related to kingbillycasino.com licensed by Curacao. Our MGA licensed site (kingbilly.com) is not relevant here. This DOES NOT mean that the Prince is treated unfairly, but there is no point in citing MGA (it is like the Prince had an argument with his neighbor in Canada over the lawn and citing, let’s say South Africa legislation). We would beg everyone here to remain relevant.

2.    “Total winnings amount" and "Winning amount" of the T&C is the same thing. The word “total” was added for emphasis. Let’s not make this a pointless linguistics game. Also, the "Profit" value which you see in your bet history does not count into the cashback formula in any way.

3.     We have to state here, that the Prince’s total bet amount is CA$ 780 755 and total winning amount for the period in question is CA$ 774 670. If, as mentioned in the above comments, the Prince had won only CA$330 000, it means that he had to lose around 400k with us which is not possible according to his deposit history. Let's do the math. The Prince states that his total winning amount is CA$ 330 000 and his total bet sum is CA$ 780 000. So, we have 780 000 - 330 000 = 450 000$ loses. His deposit sum for the period 28.10 - 4.11 is CA$ 8000 which means that he had won from this 8k around 440k and Lost 450k. There are only 2 ways of how he could do this:
a)    He won 440k from this 8k, which is not logical because his total winning amount is 330 000 as he mentioned;
b)    He deposited 440k and lost all the money which is also not true according to your deposit history.

These are the only ways the Prince could expect CA$ 5000- 7500 as he requires from us.

4.    So, this is why we have explained to the Prince numerous times that the amount 330k he mentions is his profit from the game session from 28.11 till 04.11. Let’s say it again: Profit does not relate to the cashback formula in any way.

5.    We have already stated in our previous reply about calculation: Prince Cashback Formula: Total bet sum (780 755 CAD) – Winning total Amount (774 670 CAD) – Issued Bonuses (483 CAD) *0,1. The "winning total amount" is way more than CA$ 330 000 and we are ready to prove it with all screens to our respectful ADR

Dear Forum, we kindly ask the Prince to verify all the above with you, or any other online gaming consultant or lawyer/attorney he wishes to. To our opinion, the Prince has been carried away and is engaged in a frustrating situation which steals the joy of gaming from him.

Thank you once again, 

The King Billy Team

Listen the argument here is the definition of  what WINNING AMOUNT is:

I say it's  net wins 

you say it's gross wins 

Read what I wrote its obvious and clear as day that winning amount is defined  as net wins, Also every casino that has a weekly cashback policy regards it as net wins.

I have submitted a complaint already with thepogg.com, and is that the adr you are speaking of.  Also, if that's your ADR then comply with them and let them settle the issue, as per MGA Regulations, since the cashback policy is the same  for Both casinos. I'm sure if your right, being honest as they are they would favour you guys!!! and I promise I will shut up, forever!!!

[Blackjax]

This is a personal question but May I know if you are okay with me asking you that for how many years have you been into online gambling ?

I hope you are okay with answering.

[niran]

10 hours ago, Blackjax said:

This is a personal question but May I know if you are okay with me asking you that for how many years have you been into online gambling ?

I hope you are okay with answering.

I started gambling online officially when all the casinos were closed due to corona so march of 2020

[niran]

Can anyone here on the forum after reading my last post replying to Ruslan, give me an  answer if I was mislead or not? please I just want to know? and what I was led to believe through the emails  of what the deff. of winning amount is. is it net wins or gross wins?

[Afi4wins]

5 hours ago, niran said:

Can anyone here on the forum after reading my last post replying to Ruslan, give me an  answer if I was mislead or not? please I just want to know? and what I was led to believe through the emails  of what the deff. of winning amount is. is it net wins or gross wins?

Let me be very honest here Niran, I think none of us members here are qualified enough to determine whether the calculations should be based on net wins or gross wins, but by all standards of practice, what matters most is the actual NET LOSS.

With slots, I am quite sure that it would be based on gross wins, simply because each winning amount would be shown on screen as the 'bet amount x the win value of the winning combination'. This is not how wins are shown in table games, so I cannot determine which should be which. It may even involve a slightly different formula in calculating the net loss, but then yet again, I am in no position to determine this.

I think it is best to leave this to the right people (ADR) to resolve the issue for you Niran.  

[Blackjax]

First thing first. As the cashback is calculated by a software without any human intervention I dont understand the questioning of cashback amount. 

The software calculates cashback and adds it your account automatically.

Secondly i asked you how long u have been gambling because I wanted to understand how much knowledge you might have of how online casino works and their various terminology. 

Now you want Kingbilly to give you a cashback amount to use your formula and give you a cashback instead of the formula they have been using for years. 

Your comments where u say they are giving "ME" wrong definitions not to pay "ME" maked no sense. You are not their only player. They have lots of player who bet maybe more or less than you but they all recieve cashback with same formula.

[niran]

14 hours ago, Blackjax said:

First thing first. As the cashback is calculated by a software without any human intervention I dont understand the questioning of cashback amount. 

The software calculates cashback and adds it your account automatically.

Secondly i asked you how long u have been gambling because I wanted to understand how much knowledge you might have of how online casino works and their various terminology. 

Now you want Kingbilly to give you a cashback amount to use your formula and give you a cashback instead of the formula they have been using for years. 

Your comments where u say they are giving "ME" wrong definitions not to pay "ME" maked no sense. You are not their only player. They have lots of player who bet maybe more or less than you but they all recieve cashback with same formula.

obviously you didn't read my reply, and look at the emails, as proof. just to clarify the support and my vip rep said at first I wasn't going to get a cashback using their software system, then after I emailed about AskGamblers they sent it to me. and all the emails of diff Cashback schemes they told me that I have proof of, still doesn't validate what your saying!! please if you have an opinion make it valid, based off evidence!! 

[cocopop3011]

2 hours ago, niran said:

obviously you didn't read my reply, and look at the emails, as proof. just to clarify the support and my vip rep said at first I wasn't going to get a cashback using their software system, then after I emailed about AskGamblers they sent it to me. and all the emails of diff Cashback schemes they told me that I have proof of, still doesn't validate what your saying!! please if you have an opinion make it valid, based off evidence!! 

Please remember to keep it friendly boys. I'm sure Blackjax is only to trying to assit the best way in which he can.

Can I ask, have you already taken the avice that Valdes offered in his previous post?

[niran]

well I submitted a complaint to thepogg.com but I'm not sure if thats the adr that ruslan was speaking of, but I spoke with the AskGamblers support and they told me to wait for a reply from them. And then I guess I will have to go to the next channel, which is the curaçao complaint team but from all the forums that I have read it seems it will be difficult to get a reply back.