Provably Fair Game but unable to verify bets

[Ghostnipple]

I play one of the provably fair games at an online casino. They advertise a specific range of games as provably fair, one of which I play almost exclusively on that site.
They have a "unhash Server Seed" tool which allows players (after they have changed seed) to get the unhashed version of the server seed. That then allows them to verify their bets on site or via a third party bet verifier.

However I entered a previous hashed server seed, which I took from my bet archive, into their unhash tool, and I just get an error. I spoke with the one of the devs and basically they can't unhash that server seed. So I am unable to get the unhashed version of that server seed, and therefore I am unable to verify my bets, which means those bets are not provably fair.

So basically they advertised a game as being provably fair, and I played that game assuming it to provably fair, but now I find out it is not provably fair. Would it be completely outrageous to ask for a refund?

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Ghostnipple

[Afi4wins]

I've never come across such a thing as 'unhash server seed', so I really cannot say anything about it.

What strikes my mind is...how can unhashing the server seed prove that your bet was played on fair grounds or not? Based on the numbers generated by the RNG, based on the gained RTPs, or what? As you know, a player's RTP can fluctuate wildly during play in any one session, and getting a 60% RTP in one session does not prove that it was an unfair play. So how can anyone even determine if a bet was played on fair ground or not?

As far as I can see, and comprehend, this 'unhash server seed' is just a gimmick, or a hacker's tool, and does nothing else. Just my ignorant thoughts of course.

[Ghostnipple]

On 1/3/2023 at 5:57 AM, Afi4wins said:

I've never come across such a thing as 'unhash server seed', so I really cannot say anything about it.

What strikes my mind is...how can unhashing the server seed prove that your bet was played on fair grounds or not? Based on the numbers generated by the RNG, based on the gained RTPs, or what? As you know, a player's RTP can fluctuate wildly during play in any one session, and getting a 60% RTP in one session does not prove that it was an unfair play. So how can anyone even determine if a bet was played on fair ground or not?

As far as I can see, and comprehend, this 'unhash server seed' is just a gimmick, or a hacker's tool, and does nothing else. Just my ignorant thoughts of course.

The casino uses a bet verification system which they cheekily refer to as "Provably fair", a misleading term as it doesn't in any way prove fairness
it simply allows the player to verify that the bet results have not been manipulated by the casino.

How the Provably fair system works
The players bet results are generated using a publicly available algorithm which needs 2 inputs to generate that chain of results.
One input is from the casino, "the server seed", the casino encrypt their server seed using sha256 and present that encrypted seed (hash) to the player upfront.
The player then chooses their own "player seed" and gives that to the casino.
The casino now has both inputs required and generates the chain of bet results for the players games.

Although the casino knows what the players seed is, they can't change their own seed to get a more advantageous set of results, because the player has the hashed version of their seed.
The player can change to a new chain of results at any time, and it is at this point that the casino will supply the player the non-encrypted (non-hashed) version of the casino's "server seed".
With both seeds the player can generate the set of game results, on the casino's site or via a third party website, and compare them to his bet records to verify they are the same.

The point of this system is to encourage players to play at any casino that offers "Provably Fair" games. 
If the casino cheats by changing the bet outcomes, the player can find out by verifying the bets.

My issue is they pitched to me a provably fair game which as it turns out is not provably fair because they are unable to provide me with the non-hashed version of their server seed. Without that there is no way I can verify the casino did not cheat. So the game was not provably fair, at least not for me on that particular seed.


*Note: It is not possible to actually unhash a sha256 encrypted seed, as Sha256 is one way encryption. When a player requests the non-encrypted version of the server seed to verify the bet results, the casino simply supply's the original non-hashed version to the player, which I presume they store  in a database somewhere. The casino refer to this as unhashing which is not technically correct, it's not really an issue but where money is details matter.

[Afi4wins]

Thanks @Ghostnipple for your explanation.

Although I can now get a rough idea of what unhashing a server seed is about, this tool can only be useful (to a certain extent) to very few IT savvy users. Normal players/punters/gamblers may not even know or care about this tool, much less to use it. 

[Ghostnipple]

1 hour ago, Afi4wins said:

Thanks @Ghostnipple for your explanation.

Although I can now get a rough idea of what unhashing a server seed is about, this tool can only be useful (to a certain extent) to very few IT savvy users. Normal players/punters/gamblers may not even know or care about this tool, much less to use it. 

The online gambling sector has a filthy history of exploiting and scamming players so anything that can reassure the player is a good step forward. As you say most don't understand the provably fair system, you are correct about that. If the player doesn't take a copy of the server seed before they enter their own seed, the casino have the opportunity to change the results when the player is betting. I would say less than 5% of players are aware of the important concepts concerning Provably fair games. Many just trust that its good that the casino has that as an a feature and trust that it is working correctly.

My issue is I was promised a provably fair game, which I did not get. The bet verification system  is a substantive aspect of those games, and many players do opt to play there because of that system. I don't feel that its acceptable for the Casino to just casually shrug off the fact that my bets are unverifiable, while promoting the Provable Fairness of their site.

[Afi4wins]

31 minutes ago, Ghostnipple said:

My issue is I was promised a provably fair game, which I did not get. The bet verification system  is a substantive aspect of those games, and many players do opt to play there because of that system. I don't feel that its acceptable for the Casino to just casually shrug off the fact that my bets are unverifiable, while promoting the Provable Fairness of their site.

Would that be considered as breaking a rule for the casino? The bet verification system may just be said to be not functioning properly temporarily, or something like that, which would make it even more difficult for any player to lodge a case against the casino.

[Ghostnipple]

In my case the casino say they don't have the original server seed for the bets that I placed, there is no way I will ever be able to verify my bets.

So their system is not provably fair as far as my bets are concerned, I was told the game was provably fair. 

If I had any idea that I would not be able to verify my bets after playing, there is absolutely no way would I ever have played there, as there are other sites that have that game that are 100% provably fair, like Bustadice for example.

[Afi4wins]

Okay, so I guess it's time to move on now.

[Ghostnipple]

18 hours ago, Afi4wins said:

Okay, so I guess it's time to move on now.

hmm no because this is a big issue and is not specific to me alone, it affects thousands of players all of whom were miss-sold a service, they were promised a very specific kind of game which they did not receive. The casino is aware that they didn't deliver on their promise but has opted not to volunteer that information to the players. Players are currently unaware of the issue with the provably fair system.

 

[cocopop3011]

9 hours ago, Ghostnipple said:

hmm no because this is a big issue and is not specific to me alone, it affects thousands of players all of whom were miss-sold a service, they were promised a very specific kind of game which they did not receive. The casino is aware that they didn't deliver on their promise but has opted not to volunteer that information to the players. Players are currently unaware of the issue with the provably fair system.

 

Which casino is it? You can PM me if you don't want to write it here. 

[Ghostnipple]

On 1/5/2023 at 12:40 AM, cocopop3011 said:

Which casino is it? You can PM me if you don't want to write it here. 

Sorry for late reply, I was unwell for the last two weeks. I will PM you.

[Afi4wins]

4 hours ago, Ghostnipple said:

Sorry for late reply, I was unwell for the last two weeks. I will PM you.

Better now?

[Ghostnipple]

2 hours ago, Afi4wins said:

Better now?

90% thanks sir.

[Ghostnipple]

On 1/5/2023 at 12:40 AM, cocopop3011 said:

Which casino is it? You can PM me if you don't want to write it here. 

I did reply sir about 1 week ago, I forgot to notify you though.