Ghostnipple

Thanks very much. No Im not a lawyer, far from it. I do think its usefull having a single place where players can see the number of complaints levied against a casino, the types of complaints made and also review those complaints so they can evaluate for themselves if the casino is acting reasonably and in good faith. Jury's for the most part aren't made up of lawyers they are normally made up of ordinary citizens who are deemed to be reasonably and fair minded. The majority of players would be no different, they just need easy access to relevant information in order to judge for themselves which casinos they should support. Then those casinos that do play fairly are rewarded for that and not pushed out of the market by those that do not.

The only leverage a player has is to make any abuse they are suffering, known publicly in a relevant forum. Casino's are well aware of this and use their staffing resources and an army of affiliate marketers to both undermine, make personal attacks and drown out that players voice. Askgamblers' complaints process is one of the few safe places where players can have their complaint heard in a balanced way. The player states their case without fear of attack or having their voice drowned out, the casino states their case, and the complaint is judged by the reader on the merits of the arguments. If abuse or negligence is taking place on either side, then it becomes apparent to anyone in possession of a reasonable and fair mind. So personally it's just disappointing to see that Askgamblers is actively discouraging players (for whatever reason) from voicing complaints that relate to ToS. Let the player make their case, let the Casino respond, then leave it up to the reader to decide for themselves which party is being unfair or acting in bad faith. That is my own personal view, I'm perfectly open to rational arguments, but I will question the logic of those arguments just to make sure I understand them.

yeah sorry Im not sure what exactly to call the team who review complaints. I notice there is a page on partners which lists 6 casinos. Without any other information to hand it might suggest that the complaints are reviewed by individuals from those 6 casinos.

ok its just a proposal, if it's value is not apparent to anyone I can withdraw it. Out of interest what is the composition of the review board, who actually reviews the complaints?

Ok well If I break it down, maybe you can tell me which point you take issue with; Players read the complaints section of the website here as it informs them as to which casinos they should avoid. Askgamblers complaints guidelines specifically state that they can offer no help to a player when a complaint relates to Terms of Service. This discourages players from making complaints that relate to a casino's ToS. If players with legitimate complaints relating to ToS are not submitting complaints, then those issues do not come to light If Askgamblers are rejecting complaints that relate to ToS, then those issues don't come to light. If the most common disputes arise over ToS, and Askgamblers is both discouraging and rejecting those complaints then the details of those complaints are not posted on the site. If those complaints are not recorded and posted on site, the the community is none the wiser. What I'm suggesting is that it would be better for the community: 9.1 If players were not discouraged from submitting ToS related complaints. 9.2 If those complaints were published. Publishing ToS related complaints on site helps inform the players about the nature and behaviour of ToS disputes, and helps them to avoid falling into the same traps.

if all disputes that relate to ToS are due to players not reading the terms, that on its own is a valuable insight. But not even the casinos would agree that that all of the casinos play fair and act in good faith when it comes to Terms of service. It's better players have the information and not need it than not have it if they need it.

"breaking casino conditions is one of the most often occurring issues" https://www.askgamblers.com/submit-complaint/casino-terms-violation The objective is not to provide a resolution to the dispute, the objective is to avoid the dispute altogether. Providing the player with relevant information, before they deposit that allows them to avoid a dispute is a valuable service to the player and also to the legitimate operators. let the players know: which casinos are most/least likely to deny a payout due to ToS. which ToS conditions are most likely to result in a casino denying a payout. which conditions are most likely to lead to 'mutual misunderstanding' allow the player to determine which casinos are acting in bad faith which casinos are behaving unfairly which casinos place unreasonable expectations on the player It would appear to me that empowering the player to make informed decisions, relating to the "most often occurring issue", as to where they should or should not deposit, is a valuable exercise. At the very least it is just as valuable an exercise as providing a dispute resolution service for lessor occurring issues. If rogue operators are allowed to flourish in a highly competitive sector they either push out the legitimate operators who cant compete or it encourages the legitimate operators to engage in fraudulent practices in order to survive. Inform the players, let them decide, it is their money they risk and ultimately they suffer the consequences if denied relevant information

Agreeing to a terms of service does not make the ToS valid. The test the courts apply is determining if the ToS is reasonable, fair and made in 'good faith'. Askgamblers don't have the authority to determine whether a contract is null and void or legally binding, so they should not attempt to do so. There are some things Askgamblers can do, such as: In the context of a "Violation of Terms" related complaint; > Player's should be encouraged to make complaints. AG's guidelines currently discourage players from making ToS related complaints. > Publish those complaints. Allow the players to do their due diligence. Allow them to determine for themselves what is reasonable and fair. Allow them to decide for themselves if a casino is acting in 'Good Faith'. I don't see any better way in which AG can serve the needs of their player community, assuming that that is an objective Askgamblers aspire to. https://www.askgamblers.com/complaint-guidelines

I think there is a lot of value in logging and publishing disputes leveled against online casinos, even if the complaint doesn't qualify for AG's dispute resolution procedure. Stake.com wrote conditions that allowed them whenever they chose, to select a player in good standing and place that player in breech of TOS. Having done so they then imposed sanctions against that account, specifically blocking withdrawals. If a casino is doing this I want to know about it. Because it allows the casino to decide what complaints go in front of AskGamblers and which complaints do not. You do players an injustice by reducing what the casinos expect of them to, "Reading" the tos. What they are really expecting is: the memorizing 1500 words of legal jargon in order to achieve a comprehensive understanding of how every condition in that TOS document applies, in every possible context that relates to services, procedures and protocols that the player has no experience of. If that is'nt enough of a cognitive overload, you can throw implied terms of service in on top of that, as well as an understanding of the custom and practice of how the variety of staff choose to implement the conditions. Not to mention you have to keep checking the conditions every 60 seconds to make sure they haven't added anything. Which is what they did in my friends case, because he did read the tos, they had added it after he registered. Which is allowed apparently because they wrote it into the tos they can update the tos at any time and its up to the player to check.

I agree with @Afi4wins Your best course of action is to do nothing and wait, if you do anything else there you may risk accidentally adding complications or delays or worse. Online casinos are inclined to outsource all business functions as it allows them to scale quickly. Outsourcing IT problems, to remote teams who further outsource to other teams who have different priorities, and have different procedures, who operate in different times zones, is going to cause delays. Best if you expect it to take some time, and to wait.

Yeah I understand that, there are a lot of sites online offering dispute resolution between players and casinos. I agree with AskGamblers policy regarding TOS. I'm just stating that a problem exists. for example A friend of mine won 160k over a few days, last week, with an online casino. They blocked his withdraw and took his entire balance, saying he had had exceeded the max bet amount which they claimed was a condition on sign-up. Max bet or otherwise, he tendered an offer and they accepted the bets, if he had lost those bets, I doubt they'd have issued him with a refund.

You have no argument with me on that point, I completely agree. Some players will read TOS and Privacy statement documents, before clicking on agree but they are a very small minority. I have one recommendation. The term Violation suggests criminal intent to do harm. If Askgamblers are keen to maintain an image of impartial objectivity, then I'd suggest "breaking conditions" would be far less inflamatory. I may be making another assumption there.

https://www.askgamblers.com/complaint-guidelines Violation of casino or bonus terms Please keep in mind that in case of a violation of casino and/or bonus terms, the AskGamblers Complaint Team will, unfortunately, be unable to help you. Im not being critical of Askgamblers, they are right not to get involved when it comes to anything contractual between two parties. My question is, is there anything that can be done, that doesnt expose Askgamblers to legal shenanigans.

I accept your point, but what is true for one person may not be true for 100 others players. As I say most players don't have the stomach for that fight, or if they do push things that far then the casino would rather drag it out for as long as possible and then eventually settle. The point I'm trying to make is that, any unfair and misleading, practices are never tested in a court of law. Casinos can write what they like in their TOS and change it all at the drop of a hat.

Askgamblers will not investigate any complaints that relate to a casinos terms of service (tos). Casino's are aware of this policy and are now using it as a way to avoid dealing with complaints from players via the Askgamblers procedures. Please consider the following: 1: Casinos can put what they like in their tos. Also, they can and do change those tos at the drop of a hat. 2: It is virtually impossible for an inexperienced player to fully understand the significance of those conditions or envisage the context of how a casino's staff may choose to interpret or apply those tos. 3: Many conditions in existing Casino's tos would be invalidated in a court of law, but few player's have the stomach to take an issue that far. 4: Casinos avoid going to court, so grossly unfair conditions are never publicly challenged or ruled invalid or illegal. Casino's don't like having their dirty laundry washed in public, which is why they don't often go to court. Askgamblers have been doing this with their complaints procedure. So in order to avoid having to deal with complaints from Askgamblers, casino's are now opting to include many of the "complaint related" issues into their tos. When a complaint arises Casinos simply point to their tos and Askgamblers informs the complainant "sorry we can't help you". I understand why Askgamblers will not deal with tos related issues. However the following problem is real and is not going away. Players with reasonable and legitimate complaints are excluded from the Askgamblers complaints procedures. Askgamblers can choose to ignore this or they can attempt to address it somehow. My question is what can Askgamblers do to address this problem?

Anonymity as a casino feature is normally offered by casino owners who value their own anonymity.

One casino actually states in their privacy statement that one of the purposes for gathering Player verification data is so they can share(i.e. sell) that data to potential and existing Stakeholders (i.e. anyone with cash). Frankly I'd be surprised if Casino Directors weren't also Directors of slot providers, as it makes sense for taxation purposes. If you have a casino, you can A: operate your own games or B: you can create a separate company in Bermuda, which provides the games as a service back to your casino and charges you big money for that service. As a legitimate business expense this approach reduces the casino's tax liability (assuming they pay any tax), the cost of game services is terribly high, The casino can barely scrape a profit. For every business function the casino operates they will engage a third party provider. Whereas the reality is that the casino money is funneled out to their twin in bermuda. Most Accountants and Tax consultants will recommend something along those lines. Who has the Motive? and the opportunity? are useful questions.

When the directors of some casinos insist on remaining anonymous, then its possible that those same directors may be operating slot providers, this would give them 100% control over what happens in their own casino.

Good records management systems are essential to support financial accountability and conversely poor record keeping is a key indicator of financial crime. If a casino is consistently unwilling to provide, or incapable of providing, a full and accurate account of financial transactions (bets placed) between the player and themselves, they are telling you that they are either; a) incompetent, they lack the technical skills required to gather and maintain financial records or b) unwilling, to be held to account = unwilling to be accountable to the player = unwilling to take responsibility for any financial errors or mistakes made. Either scenario should ring alarm bells for a player. However if a casino provides timely, easily accessible, complete and accurate records of all transactions made between themselves and the player I think they should be acknowledged for that effort. If you know of any casinos that do this perhaps you could mention it in this thread.

The most accommodating casinos are the newer casino's who are desperate to pull in customers. Just like a new Pimp on the block, Casino's know they need to demonstrate that in spirit, their behaviour matches their promises. However it won't be long until they amend their terms of service so that any attempt at a withdraw allows them to beat you with a coat hanger in the middle of morning traffic. The simile is a little exaggerated , but I guess I'm saying that although the game play is the same in all casino's, if a problem arises, I find the new casinos tend to be more understanding and helpful in their behaviour to the player.

I did reply sir about 1 week ago, I forgot to notify you though.

90% thanks sir.

Sorry for late reply, I was unwell for the last two weeks. I will PM you.

hmm no because this is a big issue and is not specific to me alone, it affects thousands of players all of whom were miss-sold a service, they were promised a very specific kind of game which they did not receive. The casino is aware that they didn't deliver on their promise but has opted not to volunteer that information to the players. Players are currently unaware of the issue with the provably fair system.

In my case the casino say they don't have the original server seed for the bets that I placed, there is no way I will ever be able to verify my bets. So their system is not provably fair as far as my bets are concerned, I was told the game was provably fair. If I had any idea that I would not be able to verify my bets after playing, there is absolutely no way would I ever have played there, as there are other sites that have that game that are 100% provably fair, like Bustadice for example.