Complaints Procedure is Failing players

[Ghostnipple]

 

1 hour ago, cocopop3011 said:

When a player breaks a tos rule because they didn’t read them or didn’t understand them or simply forgot the rule, that’s not a rogue casino flourishing. Us not accepting that complaint isn’t allowing a rogue casino to flourish? 

if all disputes that relate to ToS are due to players not reading the terms, that on its own is a valuable insight. But not even the casinos would agree that that all of the casinos play fair and act in good faith when it comes to Terms of service. It's better players have the information and not need it than not have it if they need it.

[cocopop3011]

29 minutes ago, Ghostnipple said:

 

if all disputes that relate to ToS are due to players not reading the terms, that on its own is a valuable insight. But not even the casinos would agree that that all of the casinos play fair and act in good faith when it comes to Terms of service. It's better players have the information and not need it than not have it if they need it.

I still don’t see the point you are trying to make if I’m being honest? I’ve explained why complaints are not accepted if the player violated the terms and conditions. 
 

Are we speaking about something else as you mentioned players having information? I don’t really know what you’re on about it I’m being truthful

[Ghostnipple]

Ok well If I break it down, maybe you can tell me which point you take issue with;

1. Players read the complaints section of the website here as it informs them as to which casinos they should avoid.
2. Askgamblers complaints guidelines specifically state that they can offer no help  to a player when a complaint relates to Terms of Service.
3. This discourages players from making complaints that relate to a casino's ToS.
4. If players with legitimate complaints relating to ToS are not submitting complaints, then those issues do not come to light
5. If Askgamblers are rejecting complaints that relate to ToS, then those issues don't come to light.
6. If the most common disputes arise over ToS, and Askgamblers is both discouraging and rejecting those complaints
7. then the details of those complaints are not posted on the site.
8. If those complaints are not recorded and posted on site, the the community is none the wiser.
9. What I'm suggesting is that it would be better for the community:
   9.1 If players were not discouraged from submitting ToS related complaints.
   9.2 If those complaints were published.
10. Publishing ToS related complaints on site helps inform the players about the nature and behaviour of ToS disputes, and helps them to avoid falling into the same traps.

[Afi4wins]

Personally, I think what @Ghostnipple wants to see happening in Askgamblers (as per all his mentioned suggestions) would be quite pointless for Askgamblers to implement.

Why?

Firstly, only a small portion of gamblers out there would really be interested in joining any casino forums. They come to Askgamblers or any other forum websites only when they get into problems with casinos...no problems, no forums, and they'd just go on playing as they wish!

Secondly, most newbies and inexperienced gamblers don't even bother reading about the casino's T&Cs or Bonus Terms before signing up to play. They just want to make quick deposits and play, either for entertainment (not so many of them I would think), or simply for some chance at making quick wins (the bigger the bets the bigger the wins). So they tend to start playing with big bets, without much considerations for casino's T&C or Bonus Terms.

Thirdly, almost all of new gamblers learn through their own experiences and mistakes, only a discerning few would really study first all the associated terms and conditions of play, or really read up on other gamblers problems in forums to learn more. Nonetheless, learning through own experiences are usually more effective in many ways.

They are other reasons too, but I won't go deeper into it.

[cocopop3011]

2 hours ago, Ghostnipple said:

What I'm suggesting is that it would be better for the community:
9.1 If players were not discouraged from submitting ToS related complaints.
9.2 If those complaints were published.

Just to touch on this. It’s also luring the player into thinking they may have a chance when actually the complaint is never going to be closed in their favour. 
This is why we have the forum - this community can raise awareness of shady terms and conditions, or those who break the max bet rule can raise awareness in here like so many have already. 

[Ghostnipple]

ok its just a proposal, if it's value is not apparent to anyone I can withdraw it.

Out of interest what is the composition of the review board, who actually reviews the complaints?

[cocopop3011]

6 hours ago, Ghostnipple said:

ok its just a proposal, if it's value is not apparent to anyone I can withdraw it.

But your opinions are absolutely valid, and always welcome.

[cocopop3011]

4 hours ago, Ghostnipple said:

Out of interest what is the composition of the review board, who actually reviews the complaints?

Sorry I’m not sure what you mean? 

[Blackjax]

1 hour ago, cocopop3011 said:

Sorry I’m not sure what you mean? 

He means who are the people and hoe many are there who handle complain reviews.

[Afi4wins]

11 hours ago, cocopop3011 said:

Sorry I’m not sure what you mean? 

Ghostnipple is asking what and who is making up the AGCCS Team. There's no such thing as a Review Board in AG...wrong use of terminology I think. 

[Ghostnipple]

22 hours ago, Afi4wins said:

Ghostnipple is asking what and who is making up the AGCCS Team. There's no such thing as a Review Board in AG...wrong use of terminology I think. 

yeah sorry Im not sure what exactly to call the team who review complaints. I notice there is a page on partners which lists 6 casinos. Without any other information to hand it might suggest that the complaints are reviewed by individuals from those 6 casinos.

[Ghostnipple]

On 3/3/2023 at 7:17 PM, Afi4wins said:

Personally, I think what @Ghostnipple wants to see happening in Askgamblers (as per all his mentioned suggestions) would be quite pointless for Askgamblers to implement.

Why?

Firstly, only a small portion of gamblers out there would really be interested in joining any casino forums. They come to Askgamblers or any other forum websites only when they get into problems with casinos...no problems, no forums, and they'd just go on playing as they wish!

Secondly, most newbies and inexperienced gamblers don't even bother reading about the casino's T&Cs or Bonus Terms before signing up to play. They just want to make quick deposits and play, either for entertainment (not so many of them I would think), or simply for some chance at making quick wins (the bigger the bets the bigger the wins). So they tend to start playing with big bets, without much considerations for casino's T&C or Bonus Terms.

Thirdly, almost all of new gamblers learn through their own experiences and mistakes, only a discerning few would really study first all the associated terms and conditions of play, or really read up on other gamblers problems in forums to learn more. Nonetheless, learning through own experiences are usually more effective in many ways.

They are other reasons too, but I won't go deeper into it.

 

The only leverage a player has is to make any abuse they are suffering, known publicly in a relevant forum. Casino's are well aware of this and use their staffing resources and an army of affiliate marketers to both undermine, make personal attacks and drown out that players voice.

Askgamblers' complaints process is one of the few safe places where players can have their complaint heard in a balanced way. The player states their case without fear of attack or having their voice drowned out, the casino states their case, and the complaint is judged by the reader on the merits of the arguments. If abuse or negligence is taking place on either side, then it becomes apparent to anyone in possession of a reasonable and fair mind. So personally it's just disappointing to see that Askgamblers is actively discouraging players (for whatever reason) from voicing complaints that relate to ToS.

Let the player make their case, let the Casino respond, then leave it up to the reader to decide for themselves which party is being unfair or acting in bad faith. That is my own personal view, I'm perfectly open to rational arguments, but I will question the logic of those arguments just to make sure I understand them.

 

[jan duchau]

Are you a Lawyer Ghostnipple?

I like you point of view very much and do agree on many points you've made.

If all complaints, grounded or not in conjunction with T&C's and/or AGCCS ability to help or not following their own TOS, would nonetheless be posted...maybe a red line or a broader view could help potential players with their judgement about playing at concerning casino.

[Ghostnipple]

1 hour ago, jan duchau said:

Are you a Lawyer Ghostnipple?

I like you point of View very much and do agree on many points you've made.

If all complaints, grounded or not in conjunction with T&C's and/or AGCCS ability to help or not following their own TOS, would nonetheless be posted...maybe a red line or a broader view could help potential players with their judgement about playing at concerning casino.

Thanks very much.

No Im not a lawyer, far from it.

I do think its usefull having a single place where players can see the number of complaints levied against a casino, the types of complaints made and also review those complaints so they can evaluate for themselves if the casino is acting reasonably and in good faith.

Jury's for the most part aren't made up of lawyers they are normally made up of ordinary citizens who are deemed to be reasonably and fair minded. The majority of players would be no different, they just need easy access to relevant information in order to judge for themselves which casinos they should support.

Then those casinos that do play fairly are rewarded for that and not pushed out of the market by those that do not.

[Afi4wins]

18 hours ago, Ghostnipple said:

Thanks very much.

No Im not a lawyer, far from it.

I do think its usefull having a single place where players can see the number of complaints levied against a casino, the types of complaints made and also review those complaints so they can evaluate for themselves if the casino is acting reasonably and in good faith.

Jury's for the most part aren't made up of lawyers they are normally made up of ordinary citizens who are deemed to be reasonably and fair minded. The majority of players would be no different, they just need easy access to relevant information in order to judge for themselves which casinos they should support.

Then those casinos that do play fairly are rewarded for that and not pushed out of the market by those that do not.

@Ghostnipple I don't know if you are aware or not, but such complaints levied against any casino can be viewed and read by clicking on the casino review section, then scrolling down to the complaints list near the bottom of the page, then clicking on any one of the listed complaints. There's also a 'COMPLAINTS' button at the top where anyone can search for the type of complaint that they want to get info on. There's really no need to duplicate or replicate such info in the forum. Below is just one quick example of a complaint against Bitstarz casino that was rejected by the AGCCS Team.

https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-complaints/bitstarz-casino-unjustified-duplicate-account-accusations-and-confiscated-winnings

The next question is...how many readers (new or old) would even bother to search for such info just for knowledge's sake, unless they are caught in a similar situation?

Experienced AG members would know how to get such info, ie, by clicking on the relevant casino review and looking through the complaints list, but new readers wouldn't know how to go about it, even if AG could publish a comprehensive list of complaints somewhere in its website for readers' reference. Nonetheless, I bet not many would bother to go through such a hassle to get the info they want.

It's a lot easier for them to simply put forward a question in the forum, albeit a new topic, which would get much quicker responses and answers from AG and its members. 

 

[jan duchau]

The question is, do all filled complaints, AGCCS able / absolutely not able to help, actually get posted?

[cocopop3011]

35 minutes ago, jan duchau said:

The question is, do all filled complaints, AGCCS able / absolutely not able to help, actually get posted?

The ones that are rejected don't get posted. I don't work for the AGCCS - but as you can imagine, some rejected complaints I would imagine are simply players that are sore losers. Players who know full well they didn't read the tc's but still want their money. No site can fill its pages with every single submitted complaint.

[Ghostnipple]

On 3/5/2023 at 10:02 PM, Afi4wins said:

@Ghostnipple I don't know if you are aware or not, but such complaints levied against any casino can be viewed and read by clicking on the casino review section, then scrolling down to the complaints list near the bottom of the page, then clicking on any one of the listed complaints. There's also a 'COMPLAINTS' button at the top where anyone can search for the type of complaint that they want to get info on. There's really no need to duplicate or replicate such info in the forum. Below is just one quick example of a complaint against Bitstarz casino that was rejected by the AGCCS Team.

https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-complaints/bitstarz-casino-unjustified-duplicate-account-accusations-and-confiscated-winnings

The next question is...how many readers (new or old) would even bother to search for such info just for knowledge's sake, unless they are caught in a similar situation?

Experienced AG members would know how to get such info, ie, by clicking on the relevant casino review and looking through the complaints list, but new readers wouldn't know how to go about it, even if AG could publish a comprehensive list of complaints somewhere in its website for readers' reference. Nonetheless, I bet not many would bother to go through such a hassle to get the info they want.

It's a lot easier for them to simply put forward a question in the forum, albeit a new topic, which would get much quicker responses and answers from AG and its members. 

 

these are all valid points, and grounded in your experience,  I have had some experiences that give me a slightly different perspective, and that perspective does not negate your own it just adds some insight, to an ever moving ill defined hard to pin down kind of problem.

[Ghostnipple]

Consider this statement from a Terms of Service.

then consider this statement from the management team who wrote to me specifically to inform me that verification is not compulsory.  At least once a week they send the following:

There is a contradiction here between the Terms of Service and the email communication.
Stake will withhold a players funds demanding a range of documentation, stating that the player can't withdraw unless they provide that documentation, which contradicts the email from the team stating that verification is not compulsory.
What it should say but does not say is:
Verification is not compulsory unless you try to withdraw, then it is compulsory.

This contradiction can easily lead to "mutual misunderstanding", and evidence of mutual misunderstanding will invalidate a terms of service agreement.


 

[Afi4wins]

37 minutes ago, Ghostnipple said:

Consider this statement from a Terms of Service.

then consider this statement from the management team who wrote to me specifically to inform me that verification is not compulsory.  At least once a week they send the following:

There is a contradiction here between the Terms of Service and the email communication.
Stake will withhold a players funds demanding a range of documentation, stating that the player can't withdraw unless they provide that documentation, which contradicts the email from the team stating that verification is not compulsory.
What it should say but does not say is:
Verification is not compulsory unless you try to withdraw, then it is compulsory.

This contradiction can easily lead to "mutual misunderstanding", and evidence of mutual misunderstanding will invalidate a terms of service agreement.


 

Your points taken @Ghostnipple

However, the ToS states RESERVES the right...meaning, they can do it at anytime or whenever they need to, although is it NOT compulsory, not even upon any withdrawal request other than the 1st withdrawal.

The correct way to state that ToS would be 'reserves the right to carry out additional KYC verification purposes AS AND WHEN NEEDED, AT OUR DISCRETION, for any withdrawal.'

If an account is already verified, it doesn't make one more KYC verification procedure compulsory upon a withdrawal request, UNLESS, the last verification was done over 1 or more years ago, or the casino's management team feels that one new verification is needed (at their own discretion).

This sort of nuisance has happened to me at some casinos before, but luckily not at all casinos. Only fussy casinos tend to do this.

[Ghostnipple]

2 hours ago, Afi4wins said:

Your points taken @Ghostnipple

However, the ToS states RESERVES the right...meaning, they can do it at anytime or whenever they need to, although is it NOT compulsory, not even upon any withdrawal request other than the 1st withdrawal.

The correct way to state that ToS would be 'reserves the right to carry out additional KYC verification purposes AS AND WHEN NEEDED, AT OUR DISCRETION, for any withdrawal.'

If an account is already verified, it doesn't make one more KYC verification procedure compulsory upon a withdrawal request, UNLESS, the last verification was done over 1 or more years ago, or the casino's management team feels that one new verification is needed (at their own discretion).

This sort of nuisance has happened to me at some casinos before, but luckily not at all casinos. Only fussy casinos tend to do this.

Well what they are doing is with senior VIP accounts in good standing, denying those players the ability to withdraw their own money when they have won.
They are demanding Personal Identity data which has a market value of $350 US dollars, per account.
Data which they stipulate in their privacy documentation, they can sell to anyone prepared to pay for it.
Curacao does not currently require Casinos to implement KYC on player accounts, so there is no legal framework protecting the players data.

To top it off the player database was compromised twice in the last 2 months internally. So the casino has demonstrated an inability to secure players data.
No player in their right mind would give their personal data to Stake.com.
So what happens in effect is the players money is held to ransom,
"we may let you withdraw , your money but only if you give us what we want."

I cant think of a better example of both coercion and extortion.
The support staff inform the player they can't withdraw but they can keep playing with the funds, so they encourage the player to play with the funds which they willl eventually lose, and as soon as that happens,
All requirements for KYC Verification documentation melts away.

But because all of that behaviour stems from the casino's ToS, Askgamblers has already told the player they cant help them.

So what Im saying is, if a player reads all that, they are not likely to deposit to that casino. But without the data players wont necessarily be aware of the trap they are about to walk into.

BTW "mutual misunderstanding" is defined in contract law, and where it is proven to exist, it will invalidate a contract. So it is unfair of Askgamblers to suggest that a misunderstanding is the fault of the players, and they should just take that hit.

"misunderstanding of the specific casino terms and conditions is not an excuse" 
https://www.askgamblers.com/submit-complaint/bonus-terms-violation

It is established grounds to invalidate the service agreement, making the contract null and void. Knowing these things is very useful when you are dealing with casinos.