A masterclass in horrible T&Cs - Lapilanders and L.C.S Limited

[MP_123]

Hey Everybody, 

This is a copy of a post I made on another forum, but I wanted to share it here as well. Just to summarize where we are at today, the casino has actually confiscated €34.000 from my account. This was from raw gambling without a bonus balance. or anything. It's a lesson in why it is so important to read terms and conditions. The casino lapilanders is operated by L.C.S Limited and is offered by askgamblers in their affiliate program. So please be careful. I will consolidate the updates from the other forum and submit here as well so you guys can follow along on this journey.

Without further ado: 

I made the horrible mistake of not checking user recommendations for a casino's reputability. And have been shocked at a number of things I should have noted prior to depositing my money. Normally I glance over the T&Cs to check for obvious red-flags. However, in this particular case, the worst of the terms were hiding further down than I decided to scroll.

I deposited on Lapilanders.com. The first deposit went out the window nearly instantly. But the second saw me going on a mad heater and turning it into €30.000.

As far as I can determine, I was lucky enough to avoid the grossest term they have outlined:
63.4 A player with 1 deposit only will be eligible to cashout a maximum of 15x the initial deposit amount. All further winnings will be removed from the account upon withdrawal request. -By dint of only depositing €100 at a time, and losing my first deposit outright, this term has been avoided.

However, I fear that I am screwed still:
63.1 The maximum net winnings, based on licensee liability, in any 24-hour period per account are limited to 5000€.

63.2 The maximum net winnings, based on licensee liability, per account are limited to 50000€.

Even if, for instance, this clause refers only to sports betting and not casino games, I will still be in for a prolonged and rough ride:
63.3. The maximum withdrawable amount per account is limited to 7000€/month (or currency equivalent), unless otherwise specified in the Terms & Conditions of a specific promotion. Exceptions may be made to players with a higher VIP level, if any, at the Casino’s sole discretion. If a customer wins more than €30,000, the Casino reserves the right to divide the payout into monthly instalments until the full amount is paid out. If the amount to be withdrawn is larger than €7.000 , the remaining amounts will be placed back in the player’s account, to be withdrawn in the following month.

My verification documents were uploaded on the right after midnight on 16/1, and yet remain in review (~48 hours). They do state that the verification process can take up to 72-hours. The first customer service representative was helpful, and helped me upload my documents. However, the second service rep has been utterly atrocious, responding only with copy-pasted pre-canned scripts which don't answer even simple questions.

I predict that a series of events will unfold which will include the standard ***** practices that we have come to expect and love from operators who don't offer instant-withdrawals, namely:

• Issues with verification documents, requiring additional materials and subject to a new 72-hour time frame
  • Perhaps even some document "was not uploaded properly"
• Source of income proof (despite having only depositing €200)
• Initial voiding of all winnings except 15x initial deposit once first withdrawal has been requested
  • Lengthy time to resolve the issue
  • Requirement to involve MGA / Mediator organisation
• Account seizure/closure on unexplained grounds requiring escalation to MGA

In the end, I am sure that I will end up only seeing a portion of my winnings while Lapilanders do their utmost to extend the amount of time the funds be available to lose back. A shame really, €30k is life-changing for me.

[MP_123]

This saga began on the 16/1/2022. After having amassed my balance of €39K I requested a €1K withdrawal (their withdrawal limit). Of course I uploaded my KYC Documents right away, being a regular gambler, I had the standard documents ready to go.

On the 19/1/2022, I received the following email (Confiscated.JPG) informing me that 1. My withdrawal has been rejected and that €34399 has been deducted from my balance. 
I figure, "OK, I'll deal with this some other way, at least I'll withdraw the remaining €5200" So I submit a new withdrawal request.

The experience tilted me somewhat, so I have no logical explanation for the following paragraph. Perhaps I had resigned myself to the thought that I was in the hands of a predatory operator who would never pay out my money anyways? I told myself that I would just use the €200 to do some bonus buys. Well, low and behold, the bonus buys resulted in a new balance value of €24K, which is where my account sits at today. This will become relevant further down.

On the 20/1/2022, I receive a new withdrawal rejection. This time requesting additional KYC proof. Apparently now I need to take a selfie of myself holding my passport. Well, I go ahead and take the requested photo and upload it.

At the same time, I sent support an email informing them that I had exceeded their daily win limit again, and kindly asked for them to deduct the excess. I have received no reply, nor has the balance been adjusted.

On the 21/1/2022, my additional KYC document has been marked as approved. And I have submitted a new withdrawal request for €1K.

I expect that on Monday the 24/1/2022 or Tuesday 25/1/2022, I will receive a new email informing me that my withdrawal has been rejected and excess winnings will be removed. (Don't ask me why on earth this operator can't process a withdrawal while also adjusting balances). If I am lucky, the operator will leave €10.200 on my account as the additional winnings occurred in a new 24-hour window. 

Next will be the question of withdrawals. Unless of course the operator requests a DNA scan attested by the national social registry for my own "safety".

Their withdrawal terms leave a lot to be desired, which I mentioned in the initial post:

63.3. The maximum withdrawable amount per account is limited to 7000€/month (or currency equivalent), unless otherwise specified in the Terms & Conditions of a specific promotion. Exceptions may be made to players with a higher VIP level, if any, at the Casino’s sole discretion. If a customer wins more than €30,000, the Casino reserves the right to divide the payout into monthly instalments until the full amount is paid out. If the amount to be withdrawn is larger than €7.000 , the remaining amounts will be placed back in the player’s account, to be withdrawn in the following month.

So if I they actually start processing payments I will likely be subjected to withdrawing €1000 / 72 hours until I reach €7000. After this point they will require me to wait for an additional calendar month to begin withdrawing again.

Perhaps askgamblers has struck some special deal with this operator for more favorable T&Cs for players using their links, but as it stands, everything about this operator feels like a predatory money-trap dressed up as a casino. Most casino's would at least let the 1/1000 player walk out with their money since they'll always make it back. This operator seems more intent on skinning the sheep rather than just sheering it.

Here are a few of the pro-active steps I have taken thus far:
- To begin with, I want to ensure that people know that Campeon Gaming Partners, the operator of this brand as well as wallacebet, sonsofslots and sven-bet employ the same terms and conditions and KYC procedures.

- I have submitted a formal complaint to the ADR, in this case MADRE to review this case for the outstanding winnings

- Fortunately, I have had business dealings within the FinTech space and have shared this experience with a few senior contacts among the operator's payment processors (thus far, 3 of which have asked me to supply them with further details in order to review their dealings with Campeon Gaming Partners and L.C.S Limited).

Steps planned: 

- I have investigated the possibility of filing a report with the European Consumers Center to review whether the business practices are legal or not.

- In the event that withdrawals take an extended amount of time, I will use the complaint feature available here on askgamblers (thanks for providing this facility, guys. You're legends).

This point can't be underscored more strongly for all the 'yOu DiDnT rEaD tHe T&cS' zombies out there.

Terms and conditions of any particular business can never overrule the law itself, and there are reasonable expectations when conducting business or consuming services which are often 'just assumed to be case' due to their sheer naturalness. 

For instance when availing yourself of a gambling service the expectation is that you as the consumer risk your funds at the tables, and it is expected that in the event that you win you will be allowed to walk away with your winnings.

To put this into context, lapilanders casino allows betsizes of €50-€100 on slots, and €1000s on table games and game shows. This is something within their power to adjust in the various games on offer, and can easily be done. In essence, they have created a casino where they cap their max liability to €5000, while leaving a bottomless hole as the downside for the consumer. I highly doubt any regulatory body would take even a single step towards assist me recover any funds, and this is what it is. Memento Mori, I suppose. At the very least, the operator can be taken to task to protect others in the future. 

I expect to provide further updates in the coming weeks,

Happy slot slapping, brothers and sisters.

[Blackjax]

I am just speechless!

[cocopop3011]

Oh wow! Welcome to the forum first and foremost and thanks for sharing this insight. 

I see it from both sides - 

1/ The terms and conditions seem pretty clear and it states their maximum winning and cashout 

2/ They're pretty crap terms - especially if you're making big deposits and bonus bets. 

So, what's in your balance right now? If you deposited 200EUR aren't you only allowed to withdraw 15x that amount? 

 

[MP_123]

@cocopop3011

Thanks for the warm welcome. I agree with you to some extent on 
1/ The terms and conditions seem pretty clear and it states their maximum winning. 

 

However,

First, this particular term is claus 63, which would be found on the equivalent of page 12-15 in a contract. An experienced gambler would likely never invest that amount of time to digest legalese. Instead we typically skim the terms and control + F for specific things. For instance, restricted territories, max bets etc.

 
Additionally, there is a reasonable expectation in place when you enter a casino which allows slot bets of €50 - €100 and table game bets of €1000s and game show bets up to €3000 that there would not be a cap or such a paltry cap in place.

I deposited €100, lost this and then deposited €100 again, so I avoided the most gross term they have of 15x the deposit amount. 

[cocopop3011]

9 minutes ago, MP_123 said:

@cocopop3011

Thanks for the warm welcome. I agree with you to some extent on 
1/ The terms and conditions seem pretty clear and it states their maximum winning. 

 

However,

First, this particular term is claus 63, which would be found on the equivalent of page 12-15 in a contract. An experienced gambler would likely never invest that amount of time to digest legalese. Instead we typically skim the terms and control + F for specific things. For instance, restricted territories, max bets etc.

 
Additionally, there is a reasonable expectation in place when you enter a casino which allows slot bets of €50 - €100 and table game bets of €1000s and Game Show bets up to €3000 that there would not be a cap or such a paltry cap in place.

I deposited €100, Lost this and then deposited €100 again, so I avoided the most gross term they have of 15x the deposit amount. 

Yep and I agree with you 100% - their terms are crappy! 

So where are you at now? You have 10K that you can withdraw over the space of two months? The rest has been confiscated because of the maximum amount that can be won in 24 hours?

[MP_123]

 

16 minutes ago, cocopop3011 said:

Yep and I agree with you 100% - their terms are crappy! 

So where are you at now? You have 10K that you can withdraw over the space of two months? The rest has been confiscated because of the maximum amount that can be won in 24 hours?

At the time being, I currently have a balance of €24K in my account at lapilanders. I expect that they will void everything above €10.200, and then there would be a lengthy withdrawal process.

This will bring the total voided balance to €34K + €14K. Just my luck. The two times I actually hit big scores, this is the operator it happens at

In the mean time, I am hoping to warn off other players from giving this operator any of their business without being fully aware of what they are walking into. Hopefully, Askgamblers will review their partnership with the operator as well.

Best regards,

[Blackjax]

If they haven't voided your funds yet why dont you spend the money on some grind games such as wild swarm, lil devil and jammin Jars 2 and leave it at the last level. You could comeback with another deposit and take advantage. Just my suggestion.

 

[MP_123]

43 minutes ago, Blackjax said:

If they haven't voided your funds yet why dont you spend the money on some grind games such as wild swarm, lil devil and jammin Jars 2 and leave it at the last level. You could comeback with another deposit and take advantage. Just my suggestion.

 

@Blackjax

I suppose I could do that. Just basically 'give away' everything except for €10.200, however, I want this case to be for the full amount when it goes before the ADR (MADRE). Additionally,  I can not be sure what sort of twisted logic they would apply to claim I have engaged in 'collusion' or 'unfair play' or something else if I were to play away the excess funds. 

And of course, I do not want to waste any more of whatever good luck I have in this life on this operator and their practices.

Cheers,

 

[Flatzem]

@MP_123 what game/games did you use the 200eur on bonus buys? what games did you play and bet sizes during your heater?

[MP_123]

@Flatzem

17 minutes ago, Flatzem said:

@MP_123 what game/games did you use the 200eur on bonus buys? what games did you play and bet sizes during your heater?

The games I mostly played were megaway slots and game shows. This provider offers the Candyland game show. The main megaway slots I was playing when hitting my heater was dog house and one called buffalo wild (or something to that effect). 

If you decide to try your luck, please do so somewhere where you get to keep your winnings and can withdraw them without excessively slow KYC/withdrawal procedure, please. 

Cheers,

[MP_123]

The saga continues,

I use a VPN which is nearly always switched on, for work purposes I sometimes switch between my country of residence Netherlands and Sweden. Neither of which are restricted territories according to their terms of service. If you ask me, this is a prelude to confiscating the entire balance.

98% of the time the VPN is set to NL, It may have been set to Sweden while I logged in to capture screen shots. 

What I am certain of however is that no gambling has been done while setting my location outside of my country of residence. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by MP_123
Additions for clarity

[JAREKW666]

On 1/23/2022 at 12:22 PM, MP_123 said:

This Saga began on the 16/1/2022. After having amassed my balance of €39K I requested a €1K withdrawal (their withdrawal limit). Of course I uploaded my KYC Documents right away, being a regular gambler, I had the standard documents ready to go.

On the 19/1/2022, I received the following email (Confiscated.JPG) informing me that 1. My withdrawal has been rejected and that €34399 has been deducted from my balance. 
I figure, "OK, I'll deal with this some other way, at least I'll withdraw the remaining €5200" So I submit a new withdrawal request.

The experience tilted me somewhat, so I have no logical explanation for the following paragraph. Perhaps I had resigned myself to the thought that I was in the hands of a predatory operator who would never pay out my money anyways? I told myself that I would just use the €200 to do some bonus buys. Well, low and behold, the bonus buys resulted in a new balance value of €24K, which is where my account sits at today. This will become relevant further down.

On the 20/1/2022, I receive a new withdrawal rejection. This time requesting additional KYC proof. Apparently now I need to take a selfie of myself holding my passport. Well, I go ahead and take the requested photo and upload it.

At the same time, I sent support an email informing them that I had exceeded their daily win limit again, and kindly asked for them to deduct the excess. I have received no reply, nor has the balance been adjusted.

On the 21/1/2022, my additional KYC document has been marked as approved. And I have submitted a new withdrawal request for €1K.

I expect that on Monday the 24/1/2022 or Tuesday 25/1/2022, I will receive a new email informing me that my withdrawal has been rejected and excess winnings will be removed. (Don't ask me why on earth this operator can't process a withdrawal while also adjusting balances). If I am lucky, the operator will leave €10.200 on my account as the additional winnings occurred in a new 24-hour window. 

Next will be the question of withdrawals. Unless of course the operator requests a DNA scan attested by the national social registry for my own "safety".

Their withdrawal terms leave a lot to be desired, which I mentioned in the initial post:

63.3. The maximum withdrawable amount per account is limited to 7000€/month (or currency equivalent), unless otherwise specified in the Terms & Conditions of a specific promotion. Exceptions may be made to players with a higher VIP level, if any, at the Casino’s sole discretion. If a customer wins more than €30,000, the Casino reserves the right to divide the payout into monthly instalments until the full amount is paid out. If the amount to be withdrawn is larger than €7.000 , the remaining amounts will be placed back in the player’s account, to be withdrawn in the following month.

So if I they actually start processing payments I will likely be subjected to withdrawing €1000 / 72 hours until I reach €7000. After this point they will require me to wait for an additional calendar month to begin withdrawing again.

Perhaps askgamblers has struck some special deal with this operator for more favorable T&Cs for players using their links, but as it stands, everything about this operator feels like a predatory money-trap dressed up as a casino. Most casino's would at least let the 1/1000 player walk out with their money since they'll always make it back. This operator seems more intent on skinning the sheep rather than just sheering it.

Here are a few of the pro-active steps I have taken thus far:
- To begin with, I want to ensure that people know that Campeon Gaming Partners, the operator of this brand as well as Wallacebet Casino, sonsofslots and sven-bet employ the same terms and conditions and KYC procedures.

- I have submitted a formal complaint to the ADR, in this case MADRE to review this case for the outstanding winnings

- Fortunately, I have had business dealings within the FinTech space and have shared this experience with a few senior contacts among the operator's payment processors (thus far, 3 of which have asked me to supply them with further details in order to review their dealings with Campeon Gaming Partners and L.C.S Limited).

Steps planned: 

- I have investigated the possibility of filing a report with the European Consumers Center to review whether the business practices are legal or not.

- In the event that withdrawals take an extended amount of time, I will use the complaint feature available here on askgamblers (thanks for providing this facility, guys. You're legends).

This point can't be underscored more strongly for all the 'yOu DiDnT rEaD tHe T&cS' Zombies out there.

Terms and conditions of any particular business can never overrule the law itself, and there are reasonable expectations when conducting business or consuming services which are often 'just assumed to be case' due to their sheer naturalness. 

For instance when availing yourself of a gambling service the expectation is that you as the consumer risk your funds at the tables, and it is expected that in the event that you win you will be allowed to walk away with your winnings.

To put this into context, lapilanders casino allows betsizes of €50-€100 on slots, and €1000s on table games and game shows. This is something within their power to adjust in the various games on offer, and can easily be done. In essence, they have created a casino where they cap their max liability to €5000, while leaving a bottomless hole as the downside for the consumer. I highly doubt any regulatory body would take even a single step towards assist me recover any funds, and this is what it is. Memento Mori, I suppose. At the very least, the operator can be taken to task to protect others in the future. 

I expect to provide further updates in the coming weeks,

Happy slot slapping, brothers and sisters.